Tab

[Grangur]

I saw this on another forum and thought it worth sharing:

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A colleague bass player of mine was helping me to learn notes and when I asked about why he couldn't show me something wth tabs as well........[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]
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Loose english translation - "Jeepers creepers (very hardcore untranslateable German swearing), whatever dumbkopf thought up tabs had his brain in a blender!!!! LOOK AT THIS (Sheet music for sunshine of your love) and look at this (Sheet music of the same with tabs) LOOK AT BOTH OF THESE, HEILIGE SCHEIßE!!! (Pulls out a handkerchief and wipes the foam from the corners of his mouth) Compare and tell me what is the difference."[/font][/color]
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My short, abrupt, startled and spontaneous answer, "Tabs have four lines sheet music five and both have dots on 'em...... sir."[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]
"EXACTLY but my blind grandfather sees this with his walking stick. You have to see it very simply for exacty what it is: This one instructs you what to do and this one lets you know what note and more importantly how it is to be played. If you want to follow instructions, go buy a bedroom closet from Ikea."[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]
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He is so right![/font][/color]
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Except, I guess reading requires you to have a better knowledge of the FB.[/font][/color]

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1413818716' post='2582297']...
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Except, I guess reading requires you to have a better knowledge of the FB.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

... and what those dots and stuff are supposed to signify. [size=4] [/size]

[Grangur]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413823105' post='2582396']
... and what those dots and stuff are supposed to signify.
[/quote] Fair point, except you also don't know what length of time a "5" indicates when it's on any of the lines.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1413823255' post='2582399']
Fair point, except you also don't know what length of time a "5" indicates when it's on any of the lines.
[/quote]

I'm not pretending that tab is the perfect answer, and am well aware of its deficiencies. It's a bit easier to pick up than notation, despite its faults; the number of folks using it is witness enough. Is notation better..? I'd say 'Definitely, yes...', but I recognise that tab has a place for very many folks. It's not suitable for scores aimed at philharmonic orchestra players, granted, but for a spotty ado wanting to play Black Sabbath riffs, it fits the bill, I maintain. Is that so bad..?

[redstriper]

I like tabs and I use them when I need to.
I'm not a great player and I don't care, I'm as good as I need to be.
I also upload tabs for other spotty ados just like me [size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size]

[Coilte]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413825227' post='2582434']
Is that so bad..?
[/quote]

Not at all...if a person is happy to stick with playing riffs. Like everything else in life, moderation is the key.

Tabs are fine up to a point. It is when people become completely dependent on them, while neglecting to develop their ear, that tabs can be a bit of a crutch.

If however, you are happy with your playing and have no particular ambitions to progress further....by all means carry on with tabs. [size=4] [/size]

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1413837841' post='2582678']
Not at all...if a person is happy to stick with playing riffs. Like everything else in life, moderation is the key.

Tabs are fine up to a point. It is when people become completely dependent on them, while neglecting to develop their ear, that tabs can be a bit of a crutch.

If however, you are happy with your playing and have no particular ambitions to progress further....by all means carry on with tabs.
[/quote]

Well, for my own part, I read (slowly; not 'sight reading'...) and write for treble, bass and drums. I also read tab on occasion. There is no reason to stop at tabs. One may always progress. Reading from a score whilst neglecting to develop one's ear is also limiting. You're right, though; tabs are fine up to, and only up to a point. Notation goes further.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Dad3353

[timmo]

I am pretty much a beginner. I can`t read tab, but i can read a very little bit of notation. As i have to put in time to read music, i thought it would be more beneficial to read notation instead of tab. Looking at some pieces with tab and notation, the notation tells you that you have to play an eighth or sixteenth, or whatever. In tab, it just tells you to hit 5 followed by a 7 for example. How do you know what speed to play in tab? I do occasionally look at the tab to see if it helps when i get stuck. Sometimes it does, but not very often

Edited October 20, 2014 by timmo

[Dad3353]

How do you know what speed to play in notation..? Is the 'A' on the 4th string, or an open 3rd string..? Some tab (not all, but they could...) [i]do[/i] give an indication of note duration.
I'd encourage you, of course, to continue with the reading of notation, as it is, in the longer term, far more useful and complete. There is no scorn from me, however, for those who choose to use tab.

[Grangur]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1413844811' post='2582797']
I am pretty much a beginner. I can`t read tab, but i can read a very little bit of notation. As i have to put in time to read music, i thought it would be more beneficial to read notation instead of tab. Looking at some pieces with tab and notation, the notation tells you that you have to play an eighth or sixteenth, or whatever. In tab, it just tells you to hit 5 followed by a 7 for example. How do you know what speed to play in tab? I do occasionally look at the tab to see if it helps when i get stuck. Sometimes it does, but not very often
[/quote]

A prerequisite of playing from TAB is you need to know the sound of the piece of music that you're going to play. So the timing is all from your recollection of the pieces

[timmo]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413845441' post='2582806']
How do you know what speed to play in notation..? Is the 'A' on the 4th string, or an open 3rd string..? Some tab (not all, but they could...) [i]do[/i] give an indication of note duration.
I'd encourage you, of course, to continue with the reading of notation, as it is, in the longer term, far more useful and complete. There is no scorn from me, however, for those who choose to use tab.
[/quote] I guess that in notation you have it tells you the speed because you have a hollow dot for four beats,a hollow dot with a stem for 2 beats, a filled dot for a quarter note, a bar linking 2 notes or more for an eighth, and two lines joining notes for sixteenths. Isn`t that telling you the speed, or tempo of how to play notes? It doesn`t give any info like that in tab. Of course, i haven`t seen all tab sheets, so i assume if it is a new piece that is writen, it must have more information than the pieces i have seen. I also take the point of which A to hit, which is why i mentioned i do sometimes look at tab if i am unsure.

[timmo]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1413870664' post='2582882']
A prerequisite of playing from TAB is you need to know the sound of the piece of music that you're going to play. So the timing is all from your recollection of the pieces
[/quote]Don`t peopl;e write original material in tab? If so, there must be more information on original tab scores

[Dad3353]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1413879933' post='2582958']
I guess that in notation...
...
[/quote]

We'll leave the lesson in music for another time (could be a subject for a fresh topic..?), but you're on the right track. The speed (or tempo...) of a piece is written, usually at the start, and further on if it changes. Sometimes in Italian (Allegro, Andante; there are many others...), often in bpm (90,120 etc...). The form of the notes (the 'hollow dots' that you're describing...) tell us the relative length of each note. The number of beats in a bar is given by the time signature (4/4, 3/4, 6/8 etc...). Some of this will be found in tab, but not all, and not always, but there's nothing inherent in tab that prevents it being given, it's just that those writing tab seldom know themselves (hence all the mistakes for which tab is notorious...).
I would agree that the quality of very many tab transcriptions is poor; this doesn't preclude correct use of the genre. It simply clouds the issue, giving the impression that [i]all [/i]tab is bad. It is not.
As to original music being written in tab: most music, if written on keyboard and destined for string players, for example, would be difficult or impossible in tab. Anyone able to write in notation for keys would be pretty daft to write only tab for the guitar and bass parts. This shouldn't prevent being able to give a tab version, but notation would be the first choice, almost every time, for any even slightly serious composer.

[timmo]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413882034' post='2582981']
We'll leave the lesson in music for another time (could be a subject for a fresh topic..?), but you're on the right track. The speed (or tempo...) of a piece is written, usually at the start, and further on if it changes. Sometimes in Italian (Allegro, Andante; there are many others...), often in bpm (90,120 etc...). The form of the notes (the 'hollow dots' that you're describing...) tell us the relative length of each note. The number of beats in a bar is given by the time signature (4/4, 3/4, 6/8 etc...). Some of this will be found in tab, but not all, and not always, but there's nothing inherent in tab that prevents it being given, it's just that those writing tab seldom know themselves (hence all the mistakes for which tab is notorious...).
I would agree that the quality of very many tab transcriptions is poor; this doesn't preclude correct use of the genre. It simply clouds the issue, giving the impression that [i]all [/i]tab is bad. It is not.
As to original music being written in tab: most music, if written on keyboard and destined for string players, for example, would be difficult or impossible in tab. Anyone able to write in notation for keys would be pretty daft to write only tab for the guitar and bass parts. This shouldn't prevent being able to give a tab version, but notation would be the first choice, almost every time, for any even slightly serious composer.
[/quote] Yes, i had written it badly about the speed. Of course it is the BPM, and the signature.I haven`t ventured into Allegro, or Presto yet. I haven`t gone further than Andante.( i have my metronome in front of me. ) I meant the relative length of the note, just your explaination is so much better than i have written it.
I just assumed there must be a lot more to tab than just the stuff i have seen. With it being written in notation and converted into tab, would make sense i suppose.

Edited October 21, 2014 by timmo

[Dad3353]

If you've made a start into notation, I would strongly encourage you to keep it up, at your own pace, as it's well worth the journey. Tab can, as you've found, be useful on occasions (a handy hint in finger placement, for instance...) but notation, despite its relative complexity, is far more useful in the long run.
I tend to defend tab when it's attacked, but notation is certainly a much better system once one has a grasp of it. Reading fluently and at speed takes time and patience, but understanding the fundamentals is not all that difficult. There are always folks here ready to answer questions, too, which can help. Good stuff..!

[timmo]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413883748' post='2583016']
If you've made a start into notation, I would strongly encourage you to keep it up, at your own pace, as it's well worth the journey. Tab can, as you've found, be useful on occasions (a handy hint in finger placement, for instance...) but notation, despite its relative complexity, is far more useful in the long run.
I tend to defend tab when it's attacked, but notation is certainly a much better system once one has a grasp of it. Reading fluently and at speed takes time and patience, but understanding the fundamentals is not all that difficult. There are always folks here ready to answer questions, too, which can help. Good stuff..!
[/quote]I wouldn`t attack tab. It depends on what you want out of playing your instrument. After all, it doesn`t matter if you can read notation if you have no timing.For me, it is more for pleasure. If i wanted to join a covers band and get out live, then i probably would go down the tab route

[Grangur]

Timmo, I'm sure that in modern times muaic is written in many different formats including TAB. But to play from TAB it is usually necessary to have more information on the timing than is shown in most TAB sheets or chord charts.

Right or wrong it's probably teue to say that most bass players and guitarist dont read music. So although a score sheet is probably the more informative format its probable that if Tab Is used there's a better chance that it will be understood.

Sad but true.

[Doddy]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1413884394' post='2583029']
If i wanted to join a covers band and get out live, then i probably would go down the tab route
[/quote]

Even then, I wouldn't recommend that route. Every band (cover or otherwise) that I've worked with that uses any form of chart,
uses either chord charts or notation.

[Bilbo]

I did a gig last Sunday with a UK pianist composer called Andrea Vicari (Streatham) and a Chelmsford based sax player called Zak Barrett (the geography is relevant). Myself and the drummer were local. Andrea turned up with charts for some rearranged standards and a couple of her own tunes. The standards were a mixture of dots and chord sheets but her own compositions were dots. One of them, which had an African Hi-Life vibe, was wall-to-wall dots. There was a 16-bar section which she referred to as ' the Weather Report' bit (gives you some idea of what it was like). No time to rehearse. She said we could leave it out if we wanted but Zak and I looked at each other and said 'let's do it'. Remember, the performance of this tune (and all of the others) was in front of an audience in a live situation. We hit about 90%. My point is, in no way on God's earth woudl that have been even near to possible with tab. This coming weeked, I am performing with a quartet featuring a guitarist from Oxford, a saxophonist from Brighton and a drummer from Gateshead. We are hoping to get an hours rehearsal in to 'top and tail' the charts. We will be playing a whole gig of Pat Metheny tunes (about 16 charts?). Dots and chords again. There is NO WAY this would be possible with tab.

I know people will say 'I don't need to be able to do that in my situation'. Of course, that is true. But that also means that your situation will never change. Being able to read, even at my level (I am not as 'fluent' as a top pro), is a MASSIVE boon to playing the best music possible given the variables at play (travel, geography, time etc). Tab would just not deliver that level of flexibility. To me, it's a no-brainer.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1413896437' post='2583234']...your situation will never change...[/quote]

...and that's where I beg to differ. There is nothing to stop folks who start off on tab to then realise that there's far more in notation, and take it up. True; if the 'tab' path is suitable for them (up to any level they wish...) then, fine, but if they become, later, convinced enough of the value of dots, for whatever reason, then they'll take 'em on board as you have done. Tabs are not a genetic disease, they are a simple approach which suits many beginners and more. Why is it such a condemnation to start off with such..? Why do you think there is no salvation outside of dots, ever, and for ever..? It seems strange to me that, here I am defending tab, when I know perfectly well that notation is best by far. I still stubbornly maintain, despite all the laudable counter-examples of dots' merits, that there is a place for all in this world.

[Doddy]

I don't think that's what Bilbo was getting at.
Of course their is nothing to stop anyone from learning to read, but generally if someones thought is 'I don't need to read for my situation' they often won't feel the need to learn.
What I think is interesting in this situation is that when people say that they have never had to read, I find that it's because they
can't to begin with so they aren't going to get called for those gigs. If you are a good reader you will get reading gigs because people will know that you can do it.

[timmo]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413892659' post='2583168']
Even then, I wouldn't recommend that route. Every band (cover or otherwise) that I've worked with that uses any form of chart,
uses either chord charts or notation.
[/quote]I know exactly what you are saying. The point is, if you had 5 mates who wanted to form an AC/DC tribute band, and that is all they ever want o do, is there any reason for them to learn to read music? If you want to be the best you can possibly be, then reading music is probably the best thing for you to do.
I am not arguing with you on the merits of reading music, as i have a lot of respect for your answers on the theory side, but there must be some reasons why you just don`t need to read anything but tab

[Doddy]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1413911600' post='2583529']
I know exactly what you are saying. The point is, if you had 5 mates who wanted to form an AC/DC tribute band, and that is all they ever want o do, is there any reason for them to learn to read music? If you want to be the best you can possibly be, then reading music is probably the best thing for you to do.
I am not arguing with you on the merits of reading music, as i have a lot of respect for your answers on the theory side, but there must be some reasons why you just don`t need to read anything but tab
[/quote]
If you want to play in a band like that, then no you don't need to read at all.In those situations I would always recommend learning
the music by ear. It's the best way of doing it.
I'd still recommend to read though,if only to a basic level. Not even for gigging reasons. It just opens up a whole new world of
information that was previously unavailable. I've got tons of books and magazines and I can only think of one that has any form of
rhythmic notation in the tab,yet every single one has complete notation.My favourite books to study are all notation only.

[Lord Sausage]

Some people need to get over themselves or be given a f***ing Blue Peter badge for being so great. So great no one knows who they are. Does it matter! Some people are never gonna be in a jazz band, or in a pit or other pro gigs. Happy in their pub bands or playing along at home. If they want to use tab let em. It doesn't matter. When i started in the nineties I started on TAB to learn tunes quickly so i felt some development, be happy about playing an instrument. Over time I learned to read. Each to their own at their own pace. I'm going on a pro tour soon with fairly big names in their field. I won't Clang and name them it doesn't matter. What are we getting for the music? Chord sheets, a couple of lead sheets. The guitar player isn't a great reader of dots, brilliant Tab reader, and good with charts and a brilliant guitarist. Obviously good enough to for a UK tour. Did 18 months in the West End. Toured two big musicals for a number of years. Still not a great reader! Explain that!

[Grangur]

Lord S +1
Why does reading or TAB need to be thought of as mutually exclusive?
Speaking for myself I like read when working from a score in a book simply because when playing TAB I get guilt trips over not knowing the notes I'm playing.

Wrt "explain that"; I'd guess your players there are employed to play what they FEEL. e.g. you wouldn't employ Victor Wooten or Gary Willis on a gig and insist he plays from a score. Or would you?