The best combo for under £1,000?

[molan]

If you really fancy an Alain Caron then PM me - I may be able to track down an ex-demo one somewhere

[JTUK]

Thanks JTUK. Seems like you are a GK (separates) fan?! Given that I initially ranked 1= GK MB212 - ii 500W as ticking all the boxes, would you agree? Is it really as good as some of the reviews suggest? Any downsides with GK and this combo as compared to the rest?

I am actually not a fan myself of GK, but that doesn't mean that other people don't get good sounds out of them
and I would suggest them as I thought they might be along the lines of your other criteria.
I put GK below old Mark Bass and I think the 102 combo is pretty decent as well as light.
I generally have a problem with the low end of most class D/NEO type stuff as I don't think
it works when push comes to shove. It will put out the noise, but lacks authority.

But, with a budget you have to choose a compromise or two so I would look at an old GK top
and their 210's. Or, if you like Markbas, I'd get the 210 combo which is very light for what it will
do, ie, anyone with a reasonable ability to carry stuff will find it a breeze. Stack another 210
underneath that and you'll have a good modular and loud enough rig for a loud band.

If you consider this as a modular system..and I do... you can run a 210 combo for quieter situations with
the option to add an 8ohm etn cab to go to 500...
I don't see much to gain with a combo at around 50 odd lbs against a light head in one hand and the 210 in another.
If you add the etn cab..youa re doing 2 trips anyway...
That is the cost of a 500w rig and you either struggle doing it all in one go...or have two easier walks.

I think you can 'cheat' a 500w rig in smaller packages, possibly but then you are going for the volume at
any cost rather than being able to choose your sound ..
A 12" and a small head with do a lot but you'll find its limits if you have to get loud.

Anyone who has gigged the old bombproof Peavey TNT's will know that they had to cane the thing mercessly to get
the volume at loud gigs and the sound itself was shot.
This is maybe a carry over from those days... as kit has gotten 'better', but there are limits, IMO.
Be resonable with your expectations and you'll be more surprised than disappointed..??? Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[JTUK]

I'd also say that 212 is a good unit for 500w ..it depends how capable the amp is to push that volume.
I wouldn't say the same about a 210...so you'd need 2x210 in some config.

I do loud gigs with a 212.. I wouldn't try it with a 210...

[Horizontalste]

Solid advice JTUK

[stingrayPete1977]

I'd also say that 212 is a good unit for 500w ..it depends how capable the amp is to push that volume.
I wouldn't say the same about a 210...so you'd need 2x210 in some config.

I do loud gigs with a 212.. I wouldn't try it with a 210...

I 100% agree with this and do exactly the same too, I was going to respond earlier to that effect, none of the combos mentioned could keep up with my Genz 6.0 and Genz Neox 2x12T (never mind the Shuttlemax9.2 but thats an unfair contest) unaided by more cabs so I really struggle to see the point other than something like a Markbass 1x12 combo with an extra 1x12 for flexibility. Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

So the GK MB212-ii delivers 500W with a 2x12 cab, so not sure why this doesn't match up to what JTUK is recommending?

[JTUK]

I think the specs suggest this fits your bill...
That is the first part... I'd see how this sounds when pushed hard, baring in mind you might never get
to be able to that until you play a loud gig...

My reservations with processed sounds, which is how I regard class D types, is how they 'amps' up.
You have to contend with class D and NEO..IIRC..??
You need to track one down and hear it..

[Al Krow]

Ok so we're kinda wandering a little off track, but in a hugely useful direction! Thank you, I do appreciate the shared wisdom here!

So if the issue is more generally with class D heads and processed sounds, what are the alternatives you've gone for?

Pure valve amps are hugely heavy and expensive, and can be painful to maintain. The AER amp two has a 12 + 4 speaker arrangement and an [i]analogue[/i] head, but is still light. I'm wondering whether this is the secret to AER getting such rave reviews from the likes of chrisanthony earlier in this thread and a very devoted basschat following more generally? I'm guessing that (i.e. analogue) is what Epifani are also doing with their heads? And then there is Mesa Boogie with its trans-class vacuum tube pre-amp set up and gorgeous creamy sound (certainly for the M6 when routed through Delano jazz pickups) which I absolutely love...

[JTUK]

I have 3 heads.
SWR400 which I've had for well over 20 years.. very well made and I use for practice.
Thunderfunk 550-B. This is my lighter weight solution, racked with a tuner, probably weighs 30lbs all in.
Aguilar DB750... HEAVY... but the sound is so good, I will carry it most of the time..and since I
will carry that head, I'll carry a heavier ( non NEO ) 212 cab and maybe others
If the carry in is going to be silly... I might use the TF550 and NEO 112's but not for the discerning gigs
as the sound isn't there. I used to think it was...and to a degree, it still is, but not when you have the Big rig.
So, it fails by comparison..but you have to know what else is out there in front to know how far short it is, IMO
and if that is worth it to you.

If I was interesed in Epi, Mesa or anything else, I would check out basic specs on paper and see if I can live with those
and then go see/hear them.

I am not so very fussed on design tricks, but I would prefer them to be made in the west and handwired point to point.
For that, I'd expect to pay a premium.
I think you can buy into the concept and ethic of a maker and the one that fits your remit the closest usually gets your custom.
I would like a budget but once you get into the importance of your spec criteria, if they really matter, that tends to get lost a bit.

If kit is well made, it is easily repairable..even circuitboard stuff can be obtained as a lot of that stuff can be shared, and is.
You may see the same in PV, Mackie, Belhringer.
I know a very good repair guy who knows how to build these things and even though he may say he wouldn't have designed it like this or that,
he will give credit for the components used, or not ... so I tend to stick along those lines.
A valve pre stage is a good idea, but it still depends on the EQ and even then it can't always rescue an amp.

[chrisanthony1211]

Are your gigs generally through a PA, if so you really don't need all these watts as you only need your amp to be able to generate the high quality sound you want, and to be able to hear it yourself on stage, the PA will do the work and being loud on stage will only annoy the sound guy and mess with the balance. The whole issue around watts can be a little misleading as you need to multiply your watts 10 times to double your volume, so a 500 watt amp is not 5 times louder than a 100 watt amp, you would need 1000 watts to be twice as loud as your 100 watt combo, and you would need 2000 watts to be twice as loud as my 200 watts! of course speaker quality and surface area has a big role to play in how much air is shifted and how the sound travels and feels, the whole thing is quite subjective. In my youth I had a 4x10 on top of a 1x15 with a 500 watt head sat on top and whilst it looked cool I wouldn't be going back, my little combo is not only a breeze to move around but actually sounds better too.
As I said its all very subjective and everyone has there own opinion, I think most of us do the research and still end up buying and selling amps for years until we stumble across what it is we really want.

[Al Krow]

All really good points. I've come across a slightly different relationship between watts and volume in that you need 4x the watts to double the volume (i.e. you would need a 800W amp to double the volume of your 200W)? I guess one of us will be right on this ('cos for once there is a "right" answer! ), but I certainly I agree that 10x watts does not give 10x volume. The point about the PA is clearly key and also if you are going to DI out. I did come across one basschatter who said "we bass players spend our lives trying to get the perfect sound / tone and then the sound engineer comes along and does what he likes!" I thought that was just beautiful! But I have to agree with you that a key rationale for the combo route is portability (and value for money) in addition to great sound, and your AER does seem to hit the mark!

[xgsjx]

It is 10x the wattage, but loudness isn't measured in watts, otherwise I'd have a rather noisy kettle.
Watts are not the deciding factor in volume, it's the cab & efficient drivers that make most of the difference. So look for high SPL levels & a good xmax.

[JTUK]

Are your gigs generally through a PA, if so you really don't need all these watts as you only need your amp to be able to generate the high quality sound you want, and to be able to hear it yourself on stage, the PA will do the work and being loud on stage will only annoy the sound guy and mess with the balance. The whole issue around watts can be a little misleading as you need to multiply your watts 10 times to double your volume, so a 500 watt amp is not 5 times louder than a 100 watt amp, you would need 1000 watts to be twice as loud as your 100 watt combo, and you would need 2000 watts to be twice as loud as my 200 watts! of course speaker quality and surface area has a big role to play in how much air is shifted and how the sound travels and feels, the whole thing is quite subjective. In my youth I had a 4x10 on top of a 1x15 with a 500 watt head sat on top and whilst it looked cool I wouldn't be going back, my little combo is not only a breeze to move around but actually sounds better too.
As I said its all very subjective and everyone has there own opinion, I think most of us do the research and still end up buying and selling amps for years until we stumble across what it is we really want.

Yep, done that and I have the rigs I need.
The bass has to reach the areas of the stage and that means you need power so the gtr can hear you 20ft away over drums and keys
I take this rig so I make sure that will be the case even if the P.A spec tells me they have full range monitors and upwards of 4 mixes..
Unless they have a mon engr on stage, I tend to think I'll cover it, if need be.
There is NO way I can do this gig with a 112 combo. It would be painful all round and would detract from the band performance.
I'll put a 750w amp up there so I know it will take care of my end for the purpose of the band sound. Of course, it will be powerful sound
but we aren't talking about putting it behind a 3-4k rig with 2 tops and 2 subs...and even if we were, that would have to cope and blend with
my bass coming through.

Small bass rigs mean big monitors and you can take your chances with getting them but even if your rider specifies so and so for monitoring, doesn't mean you will get it. I take all that out of the equation and I take my rig for the stage size and I have volume controls. Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[Phil Starr]

I'm another fan of the AER amp one. I first came across it at another band's gig where a very amused bass player watched me looking for the bass amp and then when I found it looking for the DI lead. I just couldn't believe how loud and clean this little thing was. The trick is twofold, everything is absolutely top quality and there is some very well implemented electronics protecting the speaker whilst not affecting the sound. It does give the sound a valve like quality when pushed though.

The AER acoustic guitar amps are setting the standard too. Their development team appears to be pretty talented.

[BassTractor]

"Volume" is about what the human ear experiences, and for a doubling of that experienced volume, it has been established that one needs roughly 10 times the Wattage.
IOW, doubling the volume is not the same as doubling the amplitude.
BTW it's not the same as experienced "loudness" either.

I've seen that "four times the wattage" thing too, and would initially guess that one to be about sound pressure or similar - as sound pressure is measurable and quantifiable.
Dunno though. I recently tried to find out about all the terms we'd been taught in secondary school, and that was hard, in part because of too loose use of terms as well as litteral translations into other languages introducing errors.

[Al Krow]

I'm happy to be over-ruled on the 10x vs 4x debate on watts needed for a doubling of experienced volume . My info source, for what it's worth was this seemingly very well put together article: http://www.gmarts.org/index.php?go=216

Phil you are seriously not helping my GAS in relation to AER amps!! They do seem to be getting uniformly rave reviews. Do you know anyone who owns / have you heard the AER Amp Two? This is a bit more pricey than the Amp One, but more powerful (okay I get that an extra 40W is like nothing from the volume debate ) and importantly has a 12"+4" speaker arrangement rather than a single 10" speaker and, on paper, should therefore be even more amazing!

[AttitudeCastle]

Anyone here have a Gallien Krueger MB Combo? Interested in one myself and would love to hear thoughts/opinons

Thinking about switching to the MB212-II myself when I move as my current Head + 410 is too big for where I'm moving too.

Which is a shame as I love my Laney 410 to bits, but thinking of jumping ship finally. The idea of having a 500W 212 combo then being able to add cab by cab to a 8 12 2000W Rig does thrill my (and make my wallet cry) haha! Not that I would ever need it. ~

Heard lots of good things about the MBP cabs, scares me to think how big a rig you could have with those plus the MB heads plus the regular cabs.

[titchfieldrelic]

GuitarGuitar have Mesa M3Combos (three) at £799! Price was £1,500.
300 watts, a 12" speaker and Mesa quality. How would this compare, I wonder, with the AER Amp 1?
I can't imagine it would be inferior in any way.
Trouble is, it seems that nobody has one, or tested one.

[chrisanthony1211]

Mesa M3 Carbibe.....oh yes I bet that is very nice indeed.... 300 watt at 4 ohms, I would love to sit this next to my amp one and compare the two.

Check out the article below, it makes some interesting reading.

http://www.matthelm.co.uk/what-size-amp-do-you-need-for-gigs/

Edited July 15, 2014 by chrisanthony1211

[Lozz196]

I agree with the point that your rig has to be powerful enough so that all in the band, and the audience, can hear it without FOH, in the venues that you play. From there, there are so many other factors to take into account - weight, size, portability, not to mention the actual sound of course. But ticking all of those isn`t much use if the band/audience can`t hear you.

[BassTractor]

this seemingly very well put together article: http://www.gmarts.org/index.php?go=216

Yup, without having read it, it does seem like a nice article to me as well, by the looks of it.
Do notice how he does state -6 to -10 dB, and then continues using -6 dB, but stating "at least". This is in line with what our physics teacher taught us.

x W --> y dB
2x W --> (y+3) dB
4x W --> (y+6) dB
8x W --> (y+9) dB
roughly 10x W --> (y+10) dB. I'm too lazy to pull out my calculator and find the exact numbers, but this is where the "you need 10 times the wattage" comes from. In the real world however, people tend to react strongly to perceived loudness, and loudness has a lot to do with linearity (or rather lack thereof) and compression (before even speaking about distortion), so this stuff always takes long texts before everything is worded nicely and correct. Me personally, I can't do it in English at all, and it's long since I could do it in my mother tongue, Dutch.
I hope this still helps though. Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[Phil Starr]

Um don't know if this helps with the dB debate/understanding http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html

My argument is that all your combo needs to do is to comfortably match the drums. If the drums aren't loud enough to fill the room then they need to be miked up and at this point everyone needs to go through the PA. The combo just becomes your stage monitor. Making the bass louder at this point just ends up swamping the vocal mics and making everything sound awful so there really is no point. If you can create a comfortable 120dB that is pretty much going to cover anything.

Sorry the only AER bass amp I've listened to is the AER one.

[chrisanthony1211]

I saw a YouTube video of Brian May a while ago, the interview asked him if it hurts his ears being stood in front of a stack of amps playing at his concerts, he laughed, then said he has an AC30 either side of the stage and everything else is out in front through the PA, I agree with phil that as long as you can compete with the drummer you have enough power. I'm not saying that something like he amp one is always the answer to every occasion, I have a powered 10 inch sub (which I built myself, and I'm very proud of, there is a basschat thread discussing it, although ii am about to start mark 2 just to iron out a couple of flaws!)
http://basschat.co.uk/topic/238643-aer-amp-one-clone/
which I connect to the sub out on the amp one if I feel I need a little more, it gives me the flexibility needed. One thing to be aware of with the amp one is that you cannot line out into a passive extension cab, it has to be a powered cab I.e another amp, or a subwoofer which really does throw out those brown notes.

Edited July 17, 2014 by chrisanthony1211

[JTUK]

...................

My argument is that all your combo needs to do is to comfortably match the drums. If the drums aren't loud enough to fill the room then they need to be miked up and at this point everyone needs to go through the PA. The combo just becomes your stage monitor. Making the bass louder at this point just ends up swamping the vocal mics and making everything sound awful so there really is no point. If you can create a comfortable 120dB that is pretty much going to cover anything.

A stage monitor, not only a bass monitor. You aren't going to be much of a band if no one else in the band is playing to/with you
because they can't hear you. Going thru the P.A has very little to do with it as that is no good if you can't hear on stage.

No engr I know...or who knows what he is doing minds too much about stage volume unless it is too unmanageable ...and that is likely to be
the sound rather than the volume, as such. They will not want excessive bass that will boom, who does..?? but they are quite willing and able to allow a decent stage level. Depending on the size of the venue..you could have to entertain the idea of bleeds rather than enforcement.

If you turn up with 112 combo, and you are quite a pokey band... the bass will go thru the monitors anyway..they will have to, so you are substituting a bass monitor for stage monitors and side fills. They will have to be a certain level on the stage. Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[Sparky Mark]

I would recommend a Markbass CMD121H which is the bigger brother to the 121P combo. It has a deeper more open delivery and partnered with a TRV121H cab will handle most situations. Of course if you are playing arenas or with 100w 4x12 full volume guitards you will struggle with any combo IME.