The best combo for under £1,000?

[Al Krow]

That does look like a great piece of kit. I'd be really interested to get your views on how the Markbass stacks up against the other leading sub £1k contenders, particularly the GK MB212 (or MB210) and the new Fender Rumble 500?

[Sparky Mark]

I don't have any experience with either of those but I have owned plenty of amplification over the last 35 years. The markbass combos all contain the LM2 or 3 head which I think is key to their ability to cut through the mix. It is a solid state analogue (not class D digital) amplifier which has quite a warm delivery for its type. In my experience it makes almost any cabinet sound good. The great thing about the combos is that you can pick them up on BC for a few pounds more than a used LM2/3. I don't think that there are too many light weight combos out there with such highly regarded power sections for approximately £500.

[Lozz196]

Same here Mark, quietly I find the Markbass sound quite clinical but in the mix it really translates well into warmth. Plus Clarky at the moment is selling a CMD121P for not much money at all. That, with an NY121 (or a bigger 112/115) is a quality little rig - I`ve had mine for some 18 months now which is unheard of for me, having a set-up that long.

[Phil Starr]

A stage monitor, not only a bass monitor. You aren't going to be much of a band if no one else in the band is playing to/with you because they can't hear you. Going thru the P.A has very little to do with it as that is no good if you can't hear on stage. No engr I know...or who knows what he is doing minds too much about stage volume unless it is too unmanageable ...and that is likely to be the sound rather than the volume, as such. They will not want excessive bass that will boom, who does..?? but they are quite willing and able to allow a decent stage level. Depending on the size of the venue..you could have to entertain the idea of bleeds rather than enforcement. If you turn up with 112 combo, and you are quite a pokey band... the bass will go thru the monitors anyway..they will have to, so you are substituting a bass monitor for stage monitors and side fills. They will have to be a certain level on the stage.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, that the bass should be able to drown out the drums? That you need to be louder than 120dB@1m. In most venues that is going to be something like 102 db at the vocal mic line, and that is just bass. The whole back line is likely to then be at around 108dB at the vocal mic. Most vocalists are going to struggle here and you aren't going to have much dynamic range as the gain before feedback is going to be a real problem.

Obviously if you are playing the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury then you have a different set of problems to the average pub band but you probably won't be using much of your own gear, you'll have all the side fills and monitors you need. Even then the sound levels at the vocalists head position have been measured at around the 100dB level. I really didn't pluck these figures out of the air.

If the OP wants to drown out the drums then that is up to him. We all know guitarists that drown out the rest of the band, the trick is for them to turn down not for the bassist to join in. The point I was making is that for most of us matching the drums is what we need, any more than that and there are better technical solutions. Something like the AER can match the drummer and so probably can some of the other small combos mentioned, but I haven't heard them so I can't comment.

You seem a bit cross with the suggestion that you shouldn't drown out the drums.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[JTUK]

I am saying you can't be quiet on stage..and you have to have something that will fill it. If you take a small rig, you'll still have
the sound/bass through the monitors so you have to ask what would be the point of a single small combo.
The rest of the band would be screaming that they couldn't hear this instrument or that..
Of course, you want a controlled sound, but you can argue who is going to really be able to do that
without a monitor engr? So, stage mix,..?? FOH engr, ... ?? not ideal at all. Bozo band member..?? ditto.
So, unless we know the exact spec of the P.A and who is crewing the gig..and with what, you need to know what
you have can do what it needs to. We are in the area of compromise already..so unless you are all digital with a
IEM's system... you are going to have to turn up and go through the sound checks and find a way...

[Phil Starr]

I think I get what you are saying but the point is these things might be physically small, but can be louder than the drums. If you drown out the drums as you seem to suggest I don't see how that helps the band. Perhaps you just don't believe me.

There is also the issue of protecting your hearing, if you go much above the 100db levels you will permanently damage your hearing in a 2 hour gig or you'll have to wear plugs.

[Al Krow]

Definitely two schools of thought developing here:
(I) 500W plus 2x12 cabs min needed for all gigs for band and audience to hear bass; avoids risk of inadequate PA & keeps options open to be louder when needed
(II) 200W & 10" speaker fine, 'cos adequate for pub gigs and small / med sized venues, and with larger venues still fine for the band to hear the bass on stage and bass will be DI'd via PA for audience

Sparky Mark and other Markbass users does the 121H (as a stand alone) stack up against the 102p (12" vs 2x10")? If so, it's additional portability makes it a very attractive option.

Just come across the Epifunky Combo 115 on the Bass Gallery website. 150W class AB into 15" plus separate 50W for tweeter £429. Seems very good value for an AB amp with the Epi brand? Anyone heard these? Another excuse for me to go visit Bass Gallery I guess

[stingrayPete1977]

I have a single 10" cab (eminence gamma loaded) and a 300watt Genz head (175 watt at 8 ohm), its ok for acoustic jams or maybe with a small cocktail drum kit but it would struggle in a rowdy pub with a proper drummer giving it some, add another 10" and it would be fine, very similar to my usual 1x12 and Genz 600 watt head I suspect but a single 10" is going to struggle IMO and with the portability of a nice 2x10 or 1x12 and a choice of great small yet powerful heads I am still failing to see the point of an expensive combo?

Here is my back line set up, all purchased over time so the cost was spread out

Genz Shuttle 3.0 300 watt tiny head gets used at home or for an open mic style jam or practice at someones house with an 8ohm 1x10 but can run the 4ohm 2x12 if needed easily, sounds really tight and I prefer the FET tone now.

Genz Shuttle 6.0 600 watt valve pre gets used either in the cradle on the 8ohm 1x12 to make a proper Genz combo or on top of the 4 ohm 2x12 to give 600 watts which is plenty at any venue, used like that at the Robin in Bilston hardly off tickover.

Genz Shuttlemax 9.2 900 watt twin channel which combines both of the above, one FET channel one valve channel, blendable or on their own, loads of FX loop options and ways of putting things before or after the preamps or a global option for the whole shooting match, loads of EQ variables for each channel and and global 3 band EQ in front of the master out, can power anything you would ever need really and has the last version .2 extra bottom end compared to my .0 heads.

1x10 cab made by a friend to the same dimensions as a Genz 1x10, used as a small home practice amp that would destroy your average cheap combo and for jam nights with acoustic guitars etc.

Genz NEOX 1x12T proper combo cab with the fitted aluminium cradle to hold the 6.0 or 6.2 heads, tilt back foot perfect for the situations talked about in this thread, keeps up with a full drumkit but starts to faulter on an open air stage without a monitor for support and would not be good as the only backline.

Genz NEOX 2x12T loads of basschatters have these or the newer version, a single 4 ohm cab solution rather than a pair of 12's, I probably would have bought an extra 12 to go under my existing one but I bought this first as my main function band rig to replace a faulty Ashdown. That said the Shuttlemax head fits on top of this but not the 1x12 becasuse of the cradle. I can't think of a gig where this would not be able to keep up when used with the Max head?

The above gear gives a mix and match for any gig from my bedroom to the largest outdoor festival sort of gigs I will ever play, I cant see where a large combo would benifit me other than maybe a Markbass with an extra cab (total cost?) or my own Genz combo with an extra cab (no longer available and way over the £1000 quoted) or any similar version with a removable head and extra cab all will be over budget new I guess.

A combo is fine for less than a few hundred quid especially if it is staying in one place but for a jobbing bassist I really can't see the point in ones costing up to £1000 when you can buy a nice head and a 2x10 or 1x12 now giving the option to buy an extra matching identicle cab later or swap speaker brands/configuration as your needs or GAS require.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[JTUK]

I think I get what you are saying but the point is these things might be physically small, but can be louder than the drums. If you drown out the drums as you seem to suggest I don't see how that helps the band. Perhaps you just don't believe me.

There is also the issue of protecting your hearing, if you go much above the 100db levels you will permanently damage your hearing in a 2 hour gig or you'll have to wear plugs.

'Drown out the drums' are your words, I've not used them. Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[Phil Starr]

Definitely two schools of thought developing here:
(I) 500W plus 2x12 cabs min needed for all gigs for band and audience to hear bass; avoids risk of inadequate PA & keeps options open to be louder when needed
(II) 200W & 10" speaker fine, 'cos adequate for pub gigs and small / med sized venues, and with larger venues still fine for the band to hear the bass on stage and bass will be DI'd via PA for audience

That seems very fair. I think the difference is that at least one amp has breached the gap. They are ridiculously expensive but if you are spending £1000 worth a look.

If we were talking about using a 200W valve amp i don't think many people would raise an eyebrow. Because of the natural compression in valve amps you can push them harder without making horrid noises.

I don't think many people will be unfamiliar with using very long throw speakers to get the same volumes as two 'normal' speakers with half the excursion. The sort of thing Barefaced have been doing for a while, amongst others.

people are also very familiar with using DSP in active PA speakers to allow the PA amps and speakers to be worked much closer to their limits without audible distortion, or very little depending upon who you believe.

That's what AER have done, though they haven't exactly trumpeted all the details. A solid state amp, tweaked by DSP to overload gracefully and to protect their little driver so that it can be driven harder and louder. With a long throw driver so there is plenty of deep bass but protection against 'farting out'. At a price.

I'm not saying it has no distortion or that you'll get the same effect as the full Ampeg experience but they do sound good, if a little valve like, and they can be louder than the drums. I've no idea if anyone else has achieved this yet and they have their own sound just like every other combo. All i'd say is that they are a bit different and worth a listen if you are looking for a £1000 combo. I doubt there are many other 1x10's that get anywhere near being loud enough for every situation but these are different. Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[chrisanthony1211]

I'm with Phil on this one, 20 years ago i had the great big stack which I had to carry around everywhere, and I honestly think it's not necessry these days. On its own my AER with its single 10 inch speaker is louder than the SWR redhead i used to have 10 years ago, and matches my mesa walkabout I sold a couple of years ago (although I did absolutely love the sound of the SWR) once I plug in my powered 10in sub, coupled with my AER I'm pretty much good to go anywhere, practise or small gig AER on its own, need more umph, plug in the sub and this absolutely thunders out the bass. I don't really even need the sub but the AER has a sub output, and i read that this is an awesome addition which I couldn't resist. I think that we bassists are of the verge of an evolution, the quality of speaker design and the electronics that goes inside are getting better and smaller. Bass amp evolution has not progressed as it should since the 1960s, but things are changing, if you think of how technology is progressing even in the last 10 years, mobile phones, iPads, the internet, 20 years ago you would have thought this stuff was from another planet, and now we have micro bass amps that can compete with the rest of the band. I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of clever electronic trickery going off inside this amp, and that there are no wasted watts or speaker movement producing frequencies that only dogs can hear, but whatever they are doing works.
AER will not be the last company that produce a killer micro combo, and as more companies are building these things they will only get louder, smaller, lighter, better sounding and definitely more expensive. But if this is the way bass amp manufactures are going I think it's great news for us.

Edited July 20, 2014 by chrisanthony1211

[JTUK]

Sub is not good on a stage altho the drummer sitting on a kicker might be getting there with what he hears and feels.
He will need a min of a decent side fill and if you have very good monitoring you can throw away your amp altogether..
My point is, do you know what you are getting on any particular gig and if not, a small rig will get swamped
and the band will complain they can't hear you.
You can say, all turn down, and try and control that, but you have pretty much curtailed your options..
and if you can't hear anyone, you'll likely have a pretty crap gig

[molan]

I heard a GK combo for the first time this week and was quite impressed. Need to spend some more time with one and will try to do so next week.

I'll be able to run a direct comparison against a MarkBass 1x12P combo as well.

What really impressed me was a GK 500w head into their Neo 4x10. Sounded nice and very loud

If you are considering an AER combo then be sure to give one a decent workout at volume. I'd always fancied one but when I tried one about a year ago I came away a bit disappointed. It seemed to be struggling with low end response without an extension cab (it was set up with the extension for demo purposes and I was told quite forcibly to leave it that way but I sneakily unplugged it!). Without the aid of another cab I got it to break up quite quickly at any sort if volume on really low notes.

I guess it could have been a dodgy unit though and that's why the sales guy wanted me to keep the extension plugged in

[Al Krow]

Hey Molan - looking forward to your comparison and if there's a new Fender Rumble 500, which seems to be getting good reviews in a couple of other BC threads, which you can try out at the same time, even better!

A couple of comments in this thread have referred to Mesa Boogies. Titchfieldrelic has spotted a Mesa M3 combo for £799 at guitar guitar and I've been wondering (ok off topic!) how the M6 carbine would stack up against the new Demeter minnie VTBP-M800D. Now a little bird (walbassist to be precise ) told me you had experience of the Mesa and are the (lucky!) owner of a Demeter...

If that's correct then please share your views. In particular the Mesa describes itself as a "transclass" amp. Is that an AB or class D? What about the Demeter on the same point? (I see both have tube pre-amps).

[Sparky Mark]

Sparky Mark and other Markbass users does the 121H (as a stand alone) stack up against the 102p (12" vs 2x10")? If so, it's additional portability makes it a very attractive

I have only tried a 102H in a shop so wasn't able to compare with the 112H. All I know is that I like the sound of the mb 12 combos and cabs which are a narrower format than the 210. If I want louder I just add another 12 cab. Common sense tells me that a cmd102h combo with a 102 front ported extension cab would be louder still. Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[molan]

Hey Molan - looking forward to your comparison and if there's a new Fender Rumble 500, which seems to be getting good reviews in a couple of other BC threads, which you can try out at the same time, even better!

A couple of comments in this thread have referred to Mesa Boogies. Titchfieldrelic has spotted a Mesa M3 combo for £799 at guitar guitar and I've been wondering (ok off topic!) how the M6 carbine would stack up against the new Demeter minnie VTBP-M800D. Now a little bird (walbassist to be precise ) told me you had experience of the Mesa and are the (lucky!) owner of a Demeter...

If that's correct then please share your views. In particular the Mesa describes itself as a "transclass" amp. Is that an AB or class D? What about the Demeter on the same point? (I see both have tube pre-amps).

Should be able to have a play with things later in the week

I really like Mesa Boogie heads (although the Walkabout combo isn't my favourite). They can sometimes have a problem with reliability but other people have them for years without any problems. The M3 combo looks quite cool but it's relatively low powered by 'modern' standards. I think as a standalone unit it would only running at 150-165w so you'd need an extension cab to get the full 300w from it. No idea what trans-class is - it's a Mesa trademarked term and they don't seem to expand on it other than to say it's a hybrid design with tube front end with a solid state power amp.

This type of design has been around for a while so maybe they've just changed the interface between the pre & power a little & given it a fancy name

I haven't heard a Carbine for ages (used to be called the Fathom) but early ones had some problems with a noisy fan and background hum so need to watch out for those on the used market. It's one of the cleaner sounding Mesa ranges and I definitely prefer it to the M-Pulse. I've heard people call the Carbine range 'Mesa Boogies for people who don't like Mesa Boogies' lol. Definitely designed to be a more modern, quick, clean amp than Mesa are usually associated with. My favourite Mesa head is actually the Big Block - whack one of these up loud through a 4ohm 4x10 or 2x12 and they sound great.

The little Demeter is currently my favourite amp. Small, light weight, powerful and near impossible to get a bad tone from it. Really nice tone controls that work nice and gradually without suddenly going into over-kill. Sounds very clean & clear and 'muscular' to me and warms up nicely if you use the tone controls sensibly. Just feels like a nice marriage of a very high quality pre-amp with the very best of modern lightweight power stages. I've not heard another power amp that sounds as nice as the Demeter Minnie unit without going into huge, heavy valve models & I just can't be bothered to lug one of those around any more! Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[chrisanthony1211]

Al, below is a link through to a few videos that my mates girlfriend took on her phone so not the best quality, decent PA but I thnk the amp one sounds pretty good!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/anz7lsfelbsqc68/AAAA0tnMQYYfwTPS-j_l5DH5a

[Al Krow]

Cheers buddy! Really like your band and the bass player is not too shabby at all! You're right the AER amp one does sound very good; with the bass clearly cutting through the mix throughout.

I also meant to say before that your thoughts on the evolution of bass amp technology at #61 was really well articulated and a very interesting (and positive) insight into the direction of travel for bass amplification. Thank you.

[chrisanthony1211]

Thanks Al, i really enjoyed the festival. I think that the bar is being set pretty high for small lightweight combos, the likes of AER and Markbass are demonstrating that bass combos haven't got to be so big and heavy, it will be interesting what comes out over the next couple of years.

[Lozz196]

Al, below is a link through to a few videos that my mates girlfriend took on her phone so not the best quality, decent PA but I thnk the amp one sounds pretty good!

https://www.dropbox....YfwTPS-j_l5DH5a

All of that sound through a 1x10 combo? That`s amazing. Still, AER do have a reputation, and having heard that, am not surprised. Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

Just seen some dire reviews on the GK MB210 combos (basically blowing up / dying on stage) on Musician's Friend website...was that just bad luck, or does that tie in with folk's wider experience of GK?

The new Fender Rumble 500 seems to be getting some great reviews. Are the Markbass 121H or 210 combos, or even the very highly regarded AER combos going to add enough (or even anything?) to justify paying TWICE as much? I will see if the Fender (Regent Sounds) and Markbass (Wunjo) combos are in stock in Denmark St and A/B them. But grateful for your thoughts and any key niggles I should be watching out for?

[JTUK]

I am no follower of GK but I haven't heard of a trend of GK's blowing up.
Stick around, someone here might be able to throw more light on that story...

Edited August 4, 2014 by JTUK

[AttitudeCastle]

Just seen some dire reviews on the GK MB210 combos (basically blowing up / dying on stage) on Musician's Friend website...was that just bad luck, or does that tie in with folk's wider experience of GK?

The new Fender Rumble 500 seems to be getting some great reviews. Are the Markbass 121H or 210 combos, or even the very highly regarded AER combos going to add enough (or even anything?) to justify paying TWICE as much? I will see if the Fender (Regent Sounds) and Markbass (Wunjo) combos are in stock in Denmark St and A/B them. But grateful for your thoughts and any key niggles I should be watching out for?

The original MB's people had a few issues with, that wasn't uncommon to hear, but they have overhauled production and redesigned/updated the line and amps since and haven't heard any real horror stories since they have and it seems GK have always been on hand to help.

I've always had good service from GK, and great service since one of my friends became an endorsee haha! Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[Chienmortbb]

Ashdown rootmaster has only just come out hasn't it, can you qualify the unreliable claim?

I was thinking that, only launched a Namm this year.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

That's fair - see #17 for the source of my concern here. But hopefully just initial teething problems on the Ashdown production line.

I've taken the opportunity to update my initial thinking and re-order the list of "best" combos based on the very helpful feedback and comments received to date.