Playing thoughts?

[bubinga5]

Hey people. I was playing last night over a Major chord loop, and thought that i dont actually think about scales or modes.( i may be playing them at the time, but i couldnt remember) Its probably an obvious thing to say to most of you guys/girls, but feeling and emotion gets me around the bass, either it be slow soul, or staccato fingerstyle, with out a thought of what scale i may be playing.

Does anyone think this is bad practice?? Obviously i would not do this if i had company. but i dont seem to think about reference points and im not sure if im delving too much into, erm.. 'FREE' bass playing. As im not in a band at the mo...

I always see other cats doing stuff i admire and think, i wonder if that was off the cuff.. maybe i need to put my head down in the books, and think about what im playing a bit more?

Any wise thoughts

[waynepunkdude]

I only know one scale and I don't use I just play what sounds good, but thats me I'm not very good with theory.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='246358' date='Jul 23 2008, 07:48 PM']Hey people. I was playing last night over a Major chord loop, and thought that i dont actually think about scales or modes.( i may be playing them at the time, but i couldnt remember) Its probably an obvious thing to say to most of you guys/girls, but feeling and emotion gets me around the bass, either it be slow soul, or staccato fingerstyle, with out a thought of what scale i may be playing.

Does anyone think this is bad practice?? Obviously i would not do this if i had company. but i dont seem to think about reference points and im not sure if im delving too much into, erm.. 'FREE' bass playing. As im not in a band at the mo...

I always see other cats doing stuff i admire and think, i wonder if that was off the cuff.. maybe i need to put my head down in the books, and think about what im playing a bit more?

Any wise thoughts[/quote]

Sounds like my style of playing, I just cannot sit down and learn theory, I have no aspirations to be a session player and when I did play in bands years ago we never did covers and the basslines were all my creation.
If you are happy with what you do then carry on. I have met bassists with amazing technique, sight readers and really good guys but their soul / groove came from being taught not felt !
Get the books out if you want, don't feel you need to, look at all the top musicians with no formal training, and can't read a note...if you want some theory books I've loads I'm selling and they are all mint !

[Oscar South]

I've drilled every mode of the major and harmonic minor scales, and any misc scales I know like melodic minor, diminished wh/hw, whole tone etc. up and down the neck and in side different keys, and I've done the same for most arpeggios you could name. I've also studied music theory in pretty decent depth in my own time and later at uni.

I don't think of any of this when I play, though I think all the practice is very evident on my playing. I think this is how it should be.

[jakenewmanbass]

I'm going to try not to sound like a know it all but I think it will help if I qualify my opinion.
I have been a pro player for 20 yrs and have taught to degree standard for 10, so I do know a bit.
Knowing what you're playing technically can be useful, but is not necessary, and certainly it's not bad practice to feel music. You can get further quicker as a player if you technically learn what you're playing but it's very important to remember that playing music is an emotional and soulful expression every bit as much as it is a technical one.
I have said it before and I dare say I'll say it again, the aural tradition of absorbing and regurgitating music is as valid as notes on a stave and scales in a book, and is of course thousands of years older.
If it works, keep doing it.
Jake

Edited July 23, 2008 by jakesbass

[The Funk]

Think at home, play on stage.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='246379' date='Jul 23 2008, 08:13 PM']I have said it before and I dare say I'll say it again, the aural tradition of absorbing and regurgitating music is as valid as notes on a stave and scales in a book, and is of course thousands of years older.
If it works, keep doing it.
Jake[/quote]


+1

I believe in playing the way you feel comfortable but no matter how you learn practice makes perfect.

[Oscar South]

[quote name='The Funk' post='246380' date='Jul 23 2008, 08:17 PM']Think at home, play on stage.[/quote]

Good wording. A quote I heard once was that someone said "Practicing should always be hard, playing should always be easy", same kind of logic and a very valuable thing to keep in mind imo.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='246379' date='Jul 23 2008, 08:13 PM']I'm going to try not to sound like a know it all but I think it will help if I qualify my opinion.
I have been a pro player for 20 yrs and have taught to degree standard for 10, so I do know a bit.
Knowing what you're playing technically can be useful, but is not necessary, and certainly it's not bad practice to feel music. You can get further quicker as a player if you technically learn what you're playing but it's very important to remember that playing music is an emotional and soulful expression every bit as much as it is a technical one.
I have said it before and I dare say I'll say it again, the aural tradition of absorbing and regurgitating music is as valid as notes on a stave and scales in a book, and is of course thousands of years older.
If it works, keep doing it.
Jake[/quote]
I guess what your saying is, it would be good to realise a BALANCE, of both emotional inprovisation and technical knowledge!? Oscar made sense also!! the experience you gain from the time you put in on the instrument, show in your playing.

I would think that the theory is a platform for the emotional mind to work from. Blimey im getting deep.

The only trouble is i have so many bass/musical things going on in my head that thay may not come light without theory????

Edited July 23, 2008 by bubinga5

[xilddx]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='246391' date='Jul 23 2008, 08:28 PM']I guess what your saying is, it would be good to realise a BALANCE, of both emotional inprovisation and technical knowledge!? Oscar made sense also!! the experience you gain from the time you put in on the instrument, show in your playing.

I would think that the theory is a platform for the emotional mind to work from. Blimey im getting deep.

The only trouble is i have so many bass/musical things going on in my head that thay may not come light without theory????[/quote]


Mate, I know exactly where you're coming from. I have constant nightmares about it. I know I'm a good player, with experience, feel, timing, expression and tone. But I'm not at all comfortable improvising over anything complex. Then again, that's not really how I see myself anymore, I feel like a little improv is ok but I'm here to do a job. Doesn't stop me wanting to have the ability to improvise like a demon over anything you put in front of me though I'm a very visual/aural learner and I find theory pretty difficult and I don't really practice, I get far too distracted. I'm not very comfortable with all this but I really ought to be comfortable with myself and my uniqueness, I suppose we all should. Depends on whether you want to be a session type or not. I learn off the CD what I am told to by my bosses and turn up and play like it's supposed to be, with feel, timing, expression and tone. I get a real buzz performing live so that's my payoff.

I vaguely remember something Steve Vai said a long time ago, practice, practice, practice and your fingers will become eyes. Something like that, except maybe I should add, they will become ears.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='silddx' post='246402' date='Jul 23 2008, 08:49 PM']Mate, I know exactly where you're coming from. I have constant nightmares about it. I know I'm a good player, with experience, feel, timing, expression and tone. But I'm not at all comfortable improvising over anything complex. Then again, that's not really how I see myself anymore, I feel like a little improv is ok but I'm here to do a job. Doesn't stop me wanting to have the ability to improvise like a demon over anything you put in front of me though I'm a very visual/aural learner and I find theory pretty difficult and I don't really practice, I get far too distracted. I'm not very comfortable with all this but I really ought to be comfortable with myself and my uniqueness, I suppose we all should. Depends on whether you want to be a session type or not. I learn off the CD what I am told to by my bosses and turn up and play like it's supposed to be, with feel, timing, expression and tone. I get a real buzz performing live so that's my payoff.

I vaguely remember something Steve Vai said a long time ago, practice, practice, practice and your fingers will become eyes. Something like that, except maybe I should add, they will become ears.[/quote]Man..that quote says it all, in all musicians!!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='246391' date='Jul 23 2008, 08:28 PM']I guess what your saying is, it would be good to realise a BALANCE, of both emotional inprovisation and technical knowledge!? Oscar made sense also!! the experience you gain from the time you put in on the instrument, show in your playing.

I would think that the theory is a platform for the emotional mind to work from. Blimey im getting deep.

The only trouble is i have so many bass/musical things going on in my head that thay may not come light without theory????[/quote]

Yes and remember this:
When you play, [u]you are doing the theory[/u], the only thing you might not be able to do is explain it to someone else in words. The playing is the hard bit, the bit to get good at, what you're doing should be evident in the music you're playing, being able to explain in words is useful but IMO secondary.

Edited July 23, 2008 by jakesbass

[bubinga5]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='246438' date='Jul 23 2008, 09:55 PM']Yes and remember this:
When you play, [u]you are doing the theory[/u], the only thing you might not be able to do is explain it to someone else in words. The playing is the hard bit, the bit to get good at, what you're doing should be evident in the music you're playing, being able to explain in words is useful but IMO secondary.[/quote]
I agree, but a few years ago i was in a band where chordal knowledge would have been useful to interact with the pianist. IE, walking around different chords to make the music flow more. I know more than i did then. but i cant help thinking the more i know, the more i could contribute?!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='246454' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:21 PM']I agree, but a few years ago i was in a band where chordal knowledge would have been useful to interact with the pianist. IE, walking around different chords to make the music flow more. I know more than i did then. but i cant help thinking the more i know, the more i could contribute?![/quote]
You're absolutely right, and as I said it is useful, the reason I am emphasising the playing aspect is that many many players I have known and taught are down on themselves because they feel insecure about their knowledge of theory. I feel that it would help them to value what they [i]can[/i] do (the playing) the other stuff (theory) is, by comparison, easy IMO.

Edited July 23, 2008 by jakesbass

[spinynorman]

I read somewhere an interview with Carol Kaye where she dismissed "learning a song" as something only amateurs did and said she always worked out what to play based on musical theory. At the opposite end of the spectrum, somewhere in Dick Heckstall-Smith's autobiography he refers to a jazz bass player who knew no musical theory at all, but could still play anything and improvise with the best.

I suppose that works a bit like a snooker player - in order to play those shots they obviously have to calculate angles, forces and velocities, all in their head in a fraction of a second. Except they don't, and when was the last time a maths professor became world snooker champion?

[wateroftyne]

I just play what I feel, and if it's wrong I don't do it again.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='246456' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:24 PM']You're absolutely right, and as I said it is useful, the reason I am emphasising the playing aspect is that many many players I have known and taught are down on themselves because they feel insecure about their knowledge of theory. I feel that it would help them to value what they [i]can[/i] do (the playing) the other stuff (theory) is, by comparison, easy IMO.[/quote]
This is IMHO is what makes this forum great, gettings things straight in your mind about your passion, from other passionate people...Great advise J..thanks bro.. the journey continues..

Edited July 23, 2008 by bubinga5

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='246469' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:40 PM']This is IMHO is what makes this forum great, gettings things straight in your mind about your passion, from other passionate people...Great advise J..thanks bro.. the journey continues.. [/quote]

You are very welcome...
And thanks.
J

[xilddx]

[quote name='spinynorman' post='246462' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:30 PM']I suppose that works a bit like a snooker player - in order to play those shots they obviously have to calculate angles, forces and velocities, all in their head in a fraction of a second. Except they don't, and when was the last time a maths professor became world snooker champion?[/quote]

It's a point very well raised. My little bro is a world class, championship winning, pro snooker player, and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but it's one hell of a lot more complex than that. It's natural talent, tenacity, competitive personality, immense amounts of practice, knowing your history, sheer love of what you're doing, and above all, belief in yourself and unwillingness to compromise. I'm afraid I am now too old for all that and cannot practically make that amount of dedication. I would lose too much.

Edited July 23, 2008 by silddx

[ARGH]

Look at Mick Karn,cant read,cant tell you what notes he plays,cant explain the fingerboard for sh*t.....

TOTALLY brilliant player,with a distinctive voice (difficult after Jaco's shadow) Thats toured over the world and sessions to this day.

[Sarah5string]

I couldn't even tell you one scale... to work out what note I'm playing I have to count it up from the open notes.. I just don't have enough hours in the day to learn. I'm self taught from playing along to CD's tab etc and yes, I could be a MUCH better player if I learnt the theory like scales etc, but I'm the only one in my band (other than the drummer) who can learn something totally by ear without looking at a tab..... and both the guitarists have recently passed their grade 5s...

[cheddatom]

I had guitar lessons for a long time, and learned every scale and mode and chord that my teacher knew. It all bored me so much I forgot almost all of the theory I had learned, but I can still play it. I think if I hadn't learned all that theory, it probably would have taken me longer to get as comfortable with playing as I am.


[quote name='silddx' post='246476' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:52 PM']It's a point very well raised. My little bro is a world class, championship winning, pro snooker player, and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but it's one hell of a lot more complex than that. It's natural talent, tenacity, competitive personality, immense amounts of practice, knowing your history, sheer love of what you're doing, and above all, belief in yourself and unwillingness to compromise. I'm afraid I am now too old for all that and cannot practically make that amount of dedication. I would lose too much.[/quote]

Yeh, but the point is that there is "theory" (physics calculations) behind every snooker shot. They're very complex calculations, but they would aid your practice, and a lot of snooker players' practice and training is probably based upon the physics of the balls.

When they go down to play a shot, they are relying on their skill built up in practice, rather than thinking "If I hit this ball on this spot at this velocity, it will accellerate at this rate and hit this ball at this angle........"

[Merton]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='246467' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:39 PM']I just play what I feel, and if it's wrong I don't do it again.[/quote]
Ah. I DO do it again, so it doesn't notice as much - once is wrong, twice is jazz!

I really want to improve my theory and have recently bought a book of Bach pieces transcribed for bass ot start me on th epath of doing just that. Hopefully it'll help

[BassMunkee]

Learning scales is gash, imho.
Music should be about playing what you feel, how you feel.
If it sounds good then cool, you could waste hours learning how to play a 4th-minor-diatonic-pentateuch, when you could in fact be zapping out a killer riff through a couple of pedals, to a cracking rythm.
Which would you rather do?

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BassMunkee' post='246738' date='Jul 24 2008, 11:49 AM']Learning scales is gash, imho.
Music should be about playing what you feel, how you feel.
If it sounds good then cool, you could waste hours learning how to play a 4th-minor-diatonic-pentateuch, when you could in fact be zapping out a killer riff through a couple of pedals, to a cracking rythm.
Which would you rather do?[/quote]

Fair enough if that works for you.

I think we're talking about being able to improvise, and in that sense if you're not used to all the shapes (scales, modes etc) then you might find it hard as you'll be trying to think of what to play, rather than just playing.