Playing thoughts?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BassMunkee' post='246738' date='Jul 24 2008, 11:49 AM']Learning scales is gash, imho.
Music should be about playing what you feel, how you feel.[/quote]

Too many people who say that play the same mediocre predictable rubbish over and over again. At the opposite end of the spectrum I've yet to hear a band from our local 'modern music' academy that sounds even vaguely meaningful - great technique, little art.

Alex

[Merton]

I have a friend who is adamant he doesn't need music theory, to the extent he was riffing under a G major chord with B flats all over the shop. It sounded "dark" to him. It sounded wrong to everyone else!! He wouldn't listen to the guys in his band so they asked me to tell him after a soundcheck once. Sure enough from that night on he switched to B naturals. The music didn't clash anymore but it still didn't sound right either - I think ideally the 3rd shouldn't have been in his riff at all under the music the guitarists were playing.

Make of that what you will in the theory/no theory debate...

[BassMunkee]

[quote]Too many people who say that play the same mediocre predictable rubbish over and over again. At the opposite end of the spectrum I've yet to hear a band from our local 'modern music' academy that sounds even vaguely meaningful - great technique, little art.[/quote]

That is a good point - it can be an excuse for "I've got no talent, but I cover it up by just playing from the soul, man.", and it goes without saying that you can go too far either way, I just think that it's more fun to play around and work out stuff for yourself, but that works for me - (although that isn't everyone's opinion)! - I guess if you were gonna start playing Jazz or improvising over someone's arrangement or something, then you might need a touch more knowledge about the technical aspects of playing - it's certainly not something I would be able to do, I don't think, at least not without a bit of a crash course!!

[Sarah5string]

[quote name='Merton' post='246754' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:13 PM']I have a friend who is adamant he doesn't need music theory, to the extent he was riffing under a G major chord with B flats all over the shop. It sounded "dark" to him. It sounded wrong to everyone else!! He wouldn't listen to the guys in his band so they asked me to tell him after a soundcheck once. Sure enough from that night on he switched to B naturals. The music didn't clash anymore but it still didn't sound right either - I think ideally the 3rd shouldn't have been in his riff at all under the music the guitarists were playing.

Make of that what you will in the theory/no theory debate... [/quote]
See... for me there you may as well be speaking chinese... lol

[The Funk]

If you don't know any theory whatsoever, then you have to have a f***ing fantastic ear and not put yourself in situtations where you have to communicate with other musicians through words.

Learning theory can help develop your ear and your rhythmic understanding. It can also help you to understand why some things you do sound good and others sound less good.

Edited July 24, 2008 by The Funk

[xilddx]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246746' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:04 PM']Too many people who say that play the same mediocre predictable rubbish over and over again. At the opposite end of the spectrum I've yet to hear a band from our local 'modern music' academy that sounds even vaguely meaningful - great technique, little art.

Alex[/quote]

I agree. I reckon a lot of these "academies" churn out loads of people who can "operate" an instrument, but few who can make meaningful music. What I see on youtube from some of these people is awful. The Grade 8 Rockschool vids of students playing 667 or whatever it's called, are buttock-clenchingly embarrassing.

I do think learning theory and scales can be incredibly useful. But only to a "musician", and in the right context. Learning to hear and play intervals is probably the most useful practical thing you can learn. Then you can "see" the fretboard map in your mind's eye. I couldn't tell you what the notes or intervals are called without thinking very hard!

[Merton]

[quote name='The Funk' post='246763' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:21 PM']If you don't know any theory whatsoever, then you have to have a f***ing fantastic ear and not put yourself in situtations where you have to communicate with other musicians through words.

Learning theory can help develop your ear and your rhythmic understanding. It can also help you to understand why some things you do sound good and others sound less good.[/quote]
Well said.

Back to my example of the friend who knows no theory, he struggled to explain things to the rest of his band who all knew their theory, they understood each other perfectly and he just didn't get it.

[Wooks]

I just wish I could play full stop

[alexclaber]

Theory can be very handy when you're writing a song and have hit one of those problems - like how to get from a verse to a chorus, which chord to play next, how to get back after the bridge, etc etc. Without it it would take a lot more trial and error to land on what sounds right.

Alex

[xilddx]

[quote name='Merton' post='246754' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:13 PM']I have a friend who is adamant he doesn't need music theory, to the extent he was riffing under a G major chord with B flats all over the shop. It sounded "dark" to him. It sounded wrong to everyone else!! He wouldn't listen to the guys in his band so they asked me to tell him after a soundcheck once. Sure enough from that night on he switched to B naturals. The music didn't clash anymore but it still didn't sound right either - I think ideally the 3rd shouldn't have been in his riff at all under the music the guitarists were playing.

Make of that what you will in the theory/no theory debate... [/quote]

I'm sorry, if he can't hear that it sounds "wrong" then he's f***ed and will only be an instrument operator, not a musician. Theory in this case may help him be a better operator.

[xilddx]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246772' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:28 PM']Theory can be very handy when you're writing a song and have hit one of those problems - like how to get from a verse to a chorus, which chord to play next, how to get back after the bridge, etc etc. Without it it would take a lot more trial and error to land on what sounds right.

Alex[/quote]

I absolutely disagree with your statement. If you need theory to tell you what might be acceptable to you in a song, you are not a songwriter.

[bubinga5]

Like i said before its all about balance. Any one gets bored going over scales modes etc. You have to make it musical because thats why we do it!!

I know a guitarist who doesnt know any theory at all. he doesnt even know what the notes are on the f board. But he is very good. But there in, lies a problem, he admitted to me that he only plays the riffs/patterns hes comfortable with and he knows. He has a lot of them but there still all the same.

I would think that theory opens up new avenues, that you didnt think about before. When i first learned walking bass lines, i realised you didnt have to play off of the root! I could play off of the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and all sorts of inversions..

I would like to think of theory as a tool for a higher place

All though i still dont think about it when playing

Edited July 24, 2008 by bubinga5

[BassMunkee]

Thing is, I don't actually play in a band, with anyone else - so the only person I have to make understand, is me.
That doesn't mean that I don't have moments of epiphany, since having said all that before, once I invested in a keyboard I realise that what I thought I knew wasn't quite what I actually knew, so it is a learning experience, which is a good thing, but I still stand by what I said - however that shouldn't preclude the fact that you should judge yourself and learn from your mistakes and try and make it better.
I'm very proud of the things I've written, but I'm not necessarily happy with them, because with hindsight and based upon what I know now I know they could have been (much) better.
That's got nothing to do with me learning scales or theory tho - at least not explicitly anyway - for me, my experience of learning is more fulfilling, but it would be frustrating if I was in a band with people who were theorists because we probably would not be able to communicate with one another properly.
(I guess I should have put that in my first post)!!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='silddx' post='246780' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:34 PM']I absolutely disagree with your statement. If you need theory to tell you what might be acceptable to you in a song, you are not a songwriter.[/quote]

You have completely and utterly misunderstood my statement! Read it again!

When I come up with new songs it usually happens when I'm messing around on the bass or classical guitar and something just appears and off we go. Inevitably you get those moments when you're thinking, "I want this to go in that direction, I'm heading for that note over there" and when you don't immediately fall into it you go "hmmm, the fifth, is that it, no that doesn't feel right, how about over here, no that's not it, maybe if I do something weird like hold those notes the same and shift the root to that chord there, ah yes, there it is."

Listen to my music, then tell me if I'm not a songwriter. They're songs and I wrote them.

Alex

[BassMunkee]

[quote]QUOTE (Merton @ Jul 24 2008, 12:13 PM)
I have a friend who is adamant he doesn't need music theory, to the extent he was riffing under a G major chord with B flats all over the shop. It sounded "dark" to him. It sounded wrong to everyone else!! He wouldn't listen to the guys in his band so they asked me to tell him after a soundcheck once. Sure enough from that night on he switched to B naturals. The music didn't clash anymore but it still didn't sound right either - I think ideally the 3rd shouldn't have been in his riff at all under the music the guitarists were playing.

Make of that what you will in the theory/no theory debate...


I'm sorry, if he can't hear that it sounds "wrong" then he's f***ed and will only be an instrument operator, not a musician. Theory in this case may help him be a better operator.[/quote]
LOL
True though - I don't know theory but i know what sounds right, and I don't need to know theory to know what I should play next, it would be what sounds right, it might take me a little bit longer to get there in theory terms, but in practice I will still get there.

Edited July 24, 2008 by BassMunkee

[The Funk]

Here's an idea. We all use theory all the time.

Whether it's 'that note sounded bad last time in that place' or 'I don't want a minor 2nd clash on the 1 by playing F when the rest of the band is playing E', we're all figuring out what things work and don't work to help us figure out what we do want to play and what we don't want to play.

Edited July 24, 2008 by The Funk

[Merton]

[quote name='silddx' post='246777' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:31 PM']I'm sorry, if he can't hear that it sounds "wrong" then he's f***ed and will only be an instrument operator, not a musician. Theory in this case may help him be a better operator.[/quote]
hehe, good point!

[xilddx]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246789' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:41 PM']You have completely and utterly misunderstood my statement! Read it again!

When I come up with new songs it usually happens when I'm messing around on the bass or classical guitar and something just appears and off we go. Inevitably you get those moments when you're thinking, "I want this to go in that direction, I'm heading for that note over there" and when you don't immediately fall into it you go "hmmm, the fifth, is that it, no that doesn't feel right, how about over here, no that's not it, maybe if I do something weird like hold those notes the same and shift the root to that chord there, ah yes, there it is."

Listen to my music, then tell me if I'm not a songwriter. They're songs and I wrote them.

Alex[/quote]

No, Alex, I did not misunderstand you. You are talking about songwriting as happy accident and applying theory to it in order to navigate to parts you should be hearing in your head.

When I write, I hear what I want to do in my head, away from the instrument. Then I have to learn a bunch of stuff I have never played before to execute my song physically. Couldn't tell you anything about what I'm doing other than possibly what keys the parts are in. There are times, when noodling, I come up with a beautiful chord combination that I want to write a song around. Then I hear in my head what comes naturally and learn to play it.

[xilddx]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246789' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:41 PM']Listen to my music, then tell me if I'm not a songwriter. They're songs and I wrote them.

Alex[/quote]

Sorry Alex, I am not having a go at you.

But why are you inviting me to make some meaningless assessment of your songwriting prowess on a public forum, as if songwriting were a competitive sport? I can have a listen and tell you if I like your songwriting or otherwise, if you really want me too. Are we all invited?

[cheddatom]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246789' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:41 PM']You have completely and utterly misunderstood my statement! Read it again!

When I come up with new songs it usually happens when I'm messing around on the bass or classical guitar and something just appears and off we go. Inevitably you get those moments when you're thinking, "I want this to go in that direction, I'm heading for that note over there" and when you don't immediately fall into it you go "hmmm, the fifth, is that it, no that doesn't feel right, how about over here, no that's not it, maybe if I do something weird like hold those notes the same and shift the root to that chord there, ah yes, there it is."

Listen to my music, then tell me if I'm not a songwriter. They're songs and I wrote them.

Alex[/quote]

I think that before, when you said that theory can help songwriting if you don't know where it should go next - it sounded as though you were thinking of classic transitions learned from theory i.e theory dictates that this transition is called this, this transition is called that, and you would think of the one you fancy and pick that one.

The way you describe your writing process sounds more like trial and error, just the same as anyone who knows nothing about theory, therefore it doesn't do much to back up your point that knowing theory helps song writing.

[quote name='The Funk' post='246798' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:52 PM']Here's an idea. We all use theory all the time.

Whether it's 'that note sounded bad last time in that place' or 'I don't want a minor 2nd clash on the 1 by playing F when the rest of the band is playing E', we're all figuring out what things work and don't work to help us figure out what we do want to play and what we don't want to play.[/quote]

I think it's a fair point, but it's a point about language. We're all using the word theory, and some of us think this describes absolutely everything about music, and some of us think it describes academic study of music with the aid of text and study guides and the like.

[Oscar South]

[quote name='silddx' post='246807' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:57 PM']No, Alex, I did not misunderstand you. You are talking about songwriting as happy accident and applying theory to it in order to navigate to parts you should be hearing in your head.

When I write, I hear what I want to do in my head, away from the instrument. Then I have to learn a bunch of stuff I have never played before to execute my song physically. Couldn't tell you anything about what I'm doing other than possibly what keys the parts are in. There are times, when noodling, I come up with a beautiful chord combination that I want to write a song around. Then I hear in my head what comes naturally and learn to play it.[/quote]

You seem to be operating on the principle that there is one single correct way to write songs .

Edited July 24, 2008 by Oscar South

[alexclaber]

[quote name='silddx' post='246807' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:57 PM']No, Alex, I did not misunderstand you. You are talking about songwriting as happy accident and applying theory to it in order to navigate to parts you should be hearing in your head.

When I write, I hear what I want to do in my head, away from the instrument. Then I have to learn a bunch of stuff I have never played before to execute my song physically. Couldn't tell you anything about what I'm doing other than possibly what keys the parts are in. There are times, when noodling, I come up with a beautiful chord combination that I want to write a song around. Then I hear in my head what comes naturally and learn to play it.[/quote]

No, I am not talking about songwriting as a happy accident. When I write songs I generally hear the direction of the vocal in my head and am searching for the underlying riffs or chords that best support that. However the songwriting process happens many different ways and I wouldn't presume to tell anyone else how to create new music.

[quote name='silddx' post='246816' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:09 PM']Sorry Alex, I am not having a go at you.

But why are you inviting me to make some meaningless assessment of your songwriting prowess on a public forum, as if songwriting were a competitive sport? I can have a listen and tell you if I like your songwriting or otherwise, if you really want me too. Are we all invited?[/quote]

Did I ask you to make a meaningless assessment of my songwriting prowess or did I ask you to listen to some songs that I have written which thus proves that I am a songwriter, whether or not you like my process? Your attitude is reminiscent of those bassists that deem other bassists not be be bass players because they can't play all styles of music, can't read, maybe can only work in the originals band they're in. I write songs, therefore I am a songwriter. And if it was all a happy accident, how the hell would I write so many songs when I spend relatively little time doing it?

[quote name='cheddatom' post='246825' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:19 PM']The way you describe your writing process sounds more like trial and error, just the same as anyone who knows nothing about theory, therefore it doesn't do much to back up your point that knowing theory helps song writing.[/quote]

If it's reducing the amount of trial and error, which it does, then it is helping.

Why is everyone being so f u c king argumentative this week? Overdue a holiday? Well go on then, f u c k off then.

Alex

[cheddatom]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246839' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:32 PM']If it's reducing the amount of trial and error, which it does, then it is helping.

Why is everyone being so f u c king argumentative this week? Overdue a holiday? Well go on then, f u c k off then.

Alex[/quote]

It's a discussion. Calm down!

I am interested to know how your knowing theory helps you reduce the amount of trial and error in the songwriting process, compared to say a guitarist who has never learned a scale, but knows his way around the fretboard by ear.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='Merton' post='246754' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:13 PM']I have a friend who is adamant he doesn't need music theory, to the extent he was riffing under a G major chord with B flats all over the shop. It sounded "dark" to him. It sounded wrong to everyone else!! He wouldn't listen to the guys in his band so they asked me to tell him after a soundcheck once. Sure enough from that night on he switched to B naturals. The music didn't clash anymore but it still didn't sound right either - I think ideally the 3rd shouldn't have been in his riff at all under the music the guitarists were playing.

Make of that what you will in the theory/no theory debate... [/quote]

You could consider he was playing the tri-tone of the relative minor.

[xilddx]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246839' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:32 PM']No, I am not talking about songwriting as a happy accident. When I write songs I generally hear the direction of the vocal in my head and am searching for the underlying riffs or chords that best support that. However the songwriting process happens many different ways and I wouldn't presume to tell anyone else how to create new music.



Did I ask you to make a meaningless assessment of my songwriting prowess or did I ask you to listen to some songs that I have written which thus proves that I am a songwriter, whether or not you like my process? Your attitude is reminiscent of those bassists that deem other bassists not be be bass players because they can't play all styles of music, can't read, maybe can only work in the originals band they're in. I write songs, therefore I am a songwriter. And if it was all a happy accident, how the hell would I write so many songs when I spend relatively little time doing it?



If it's reducing the amount of trial and error, which it does, then it is helping.

Why is everyone being so f u c king argumentative this week? Overdue a holiday? Well go on then, f u c k off then.

Alex[/quote]

It's just a debate,
So relax please mate.

Ooh look, I have written a poem, therefore I must be a poet. I didn't know it.