Musician's Wars

[bnt]

[quote name='7string' post='246541' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:32 AM']I can understand Jeff Berlin's appeal to players to learn to read and write music and how he's sees this as [b]the[/b] way for a player to learn. But that horse has long since bolted and there are too many bassists who don't want to go down that road. It's for these people that all the bass DVDs, camps, books and so on are aimed at.

Jeff must know by now that there is no way that suddenly huge numbers of bassists are going to go back to school and learn to read & write music, especially when they don't see they have a need to. However, they may want to learn the latest techniques and so they go and buy the material to give them that information. Jeff clearly doesn't see validity in such material.[/quote]
I kinda agree with you in a general sense; on the other hand, he seems to be addressing aspirational bassists with these remarks, the ones who buy books and go on residential courses. If he thinks that's everyone, well, not everyone has the luxury of dedicating their lives to music. But if that's his audience, his advice makes sense to me. He's not saying "play like me", is he? (Not that I would want to, I think.)

I also note that, in the extracts that Steve and Victor quote on their respective websites, Jeff does not single them out for criticism, as they seem to imply. How do they know he's referring to them specifically? (The timing?)

[The Funk]

I think Jeff Berlin has missed the point [i]completely[/i].

Noone is discouraging people from reading music by stressing the importance of groove. In the same way that learning how to groove will not teach you how to read music, reading music will never teach you how to groove.

Everyone should warm up before they try to play anything tricky/serious/full-on. It's daft to suggest otherwise. There's a reason I can't do anything flashy on the first song of a set but by the last song of the last set I can play everything twice as fast with no fluffs. When I try to go full on from the very beginning, both my hands end up cramping up by the fourth song in.

And to suggest that people should not specifically look at right hand or left hand technique is insane. My right hand technique still needs work. That is the only reason I ever fluff a note when I put both hands together as he suggests. Noone is suggesting that you work on your right hand technique at the expense of your left hand technique.

I honestly think he's mental. His examples clearly demonstrate that.

Yes, you don't warm up your legs before you get into a car. But if you don't warm up before you run the 100 metres, you may pull a hamstring and you definitely won't break the World Record.

Yes, you don't practice right leg v. left leg running techniques. That's because when you run your body should be as symmetrical as possible. When there isn't symmetry and your hands are performing different functions, you will focus on different parts of your technique at different times. Just think of double bass: when you're starting out and you first practice your bowing technique, how many Classical teachers will get you to play some complex melody with your left hand?

He can't be as dim-witted as he sounds. That makes me think these differences in approach to music tuition are actually an excuse for petty, personal attacks.

Edited July 24, 2008 by The Funk

[ARGH]

Basically alot of people have a problem with Jeff,Because he's right. Music education HAS become fast-track..you can have it now..FAME FAME FAME..Bullshit so called 'Music schools' (ACM being the most guilty in the UK) and magazines. And its intolerably crap,I know a dozen kids that can tapola and slap till the sun goes down,but cant play a basic line,and stick it out with feeling for love or money.....Its technique,without the knowledge,to be honest,I think alot could /should save their cash,get a car,a decent rig and coverswork for a few years,its taught me a ton more than a classroom ever did....Because its doing it,and if there isnt the bands around,get a record and play to it.

Now Ive HAD to read on a gig,Ive not had to sight read...yet...because I dont play in those circles,But I sure as hell would love to,coz the pays a damn sight better than what Im on right now gig to gig.

I wouldnt say his public display of opinion,is arrogant...I mean How else can you critique,AND, get your point across,as these so called 'Great Bassists' are doing by their ways of expressing opinion? Sitting at the back and murmuring wont do squat. Anthony Jackson is INFINITELY more cutting to the point where he wont do interviews with some magazines because they sell sh*t to the lowest common,without a care for its musical value.

My fave 'Baileyism' was the 'Squeezing a tennis ball' idea.....I see it on here sometimes,now and again a kid threads up saying "How can I play faster/build up strength" and people offer all sorts of ideas...and hey ,yeah,thats ok,but its not getting to the point...you wanna get faster/stronger playing Bass..the answers simple..Play the f***ing Bass,you want strength,slap on some heavy guages and play,yes its gonna hurt...it will do,but after X period of time,its gonna stop hurting,because like any exercise,it builds strength/stamina/and speed.

People dont like Jeff because,he makes his answers to musical problems as simple and as easy as the magazines/schools/Teachers that flog the simple "fast fast fast BE GREAT NOW",Only his answers require effort,and actual application,and time.

Edited July 24, 2008 by ARGH

[ARGH]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='246507' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:43 PM']Pretty much, it was described to me as the band 'Imploded'
I got to see them though, it was a monumental gig.
I later then toured and recorded with Ike and Bobby Martin. Seperately.

Edit
Sorry this is OT

Jeff Berlin is a great player, but I wouldn't buy his albums or invite him for tea.[/quote]
Thunes reckons the band was jealous of him being given,unlike the rest of the group,Cart blanche,to play whatever,wherever he liked.....the only other being Frank himself. The way it comes across,from his POV is Frank would rather have him than the band,but Scott was not willing for that sort of pressure...Saying that anyway,he was really young at the time surely,and that sort of sh*t can screw with you.

(This being what Ive read in the few interviews of him.....where is he now anyways? Amazing musician...awol)

[Kiwi]

[quote name='ARGH' post='246577' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:44 AM']Basically alot of people have a problem with Jeff,Because he's right.[/quote]
I think a lot of people have a problem with Jeff because he's sometimes right, but sometimes quite mistaken, and often in the same sentance!

[Faithless]

[quote name='The Funk' post='246576' date='Jul 24 2008, 06:44 AM']I think Jeff Berlin has missed the point [i]completely[/i].

Noone is discouraging people from reading music by stressing the importance of groove. In the same way that learning how to groove will not teach you how to read music, reading music will never teach you how to groove.

Everyone shou...[/quote]

That's exactly about my opinion there..

[OutToPlayJazz]

Hmmm... Obviously Jeff Berlin hasn't read the requirements for the Victor/Steve camps. They say you need to send a recording of your playing & be proficient in reading music. I think he's just taking his overall anxieties out on these two & basing it all on the experience of one individual who didn't get much out of it personally.

Of course, we don't get to see all sides of this & I think there's probably more to it & more sour grapes.

I'd love to go on one of the beach camps at some point. Maybe next year if I stop buying basses for long enough to save some money!!!

Rich.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='ARGH' post='246577' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:44 AM']I wouldnt say his public display of opinion,is arrogant...I mean How else can you critique,AND, get your point across,as these so called[/quote]

I have no problem with people holding an opinion and expressing it openly, what I said was that his means of expression fell a long way short of finding favour with me, and further that I could hear that in his playing. Bolshy, noisy, beligerent and very willing to specifically put other individuals down.
It's legitimate to disagree with people but if you 'attack' others methods and way of doing things and dismiss that there are other ways to do things than your own, in my eyes you seriously reduce the validity of your own points by undermining the process by which you arrived at your conclusions.
It's true that many people will not hear those attributes in Jeffs playing, I do. I think he has achieved a lot and is a master technician but to my musical soul he just sounds like a big head.

Edited July 24, 2008 by jakesbass

[thedontcarebear]

He talks poop.

[BassMunkee]

[quote]My favourate Jeff Berlin moment was in that bass clinic argument he had with Steve Bailey, Steve was criticising him on not being able to play 6 string or fretless (I think Jeff had said something that that made that point seem less pointless that it does in this context) and Jeff said "pass me your fretless", he did.. Berlin played 3 notes or something, realised he was hopeless and that it was a lost cause, made some excuses and meekly passed it back .[/quote]
Actually that says more about Steve bailey than it does about Jeff berlin, and not in a good way.

[Faithless]

And, what does it say then, mate?..




Btw, while eating, I've watched a bit of Bass Extremes with Bailey and Wooten - there's some masterclass bass playing there, I gotta say.. And, that playing has some soul, too!

Anyone's into that stuff maybe?

Edited July 24, 2008 by Faithless

[alexclaber]

I'll happily agree with most of what Jeff says as long as I never have to listen to any more of his music! Great player but it seems too much like jazz written by and played by a talented computer. If Jaco or Stanley's playing had been similarly effete and dry neither of them would have had such an impact - when Jeff realises that maybe he'll be a little less bitter. Or maybe not...

As an educator he has many sensible ideas, particularly relating to musicality vs technique. I manage just fine without being able to read competently but I write and play my own music and direct my own band. If I wanted to be a sideman I'd have spent the time I've spent on lyrics and composition on developing different skills. Context is everything.

Last year he did admit that his stance was too combative and said he'd be more open-minded in the future. I don't know if he's followed through with that.

Alex

[Doddy]

Jeff Berlin talks alot a sense,he just seems quite aggressive in his manner.It doesn't make him wrong though.
Nowhere in either of Berlin's statements does he mention or critisize Victor Wooten or Steve Bailey personally. It was a general statement about his views on education. There was no need for Victor or Steve to put these quotes on their websites.All it has done is start another 'Jeff Berlin is a douche' argument,which,as anyone who has spoken to him and heard him play knows,is not true.You may not like his music,but you cannot deny that the guy is a great player.

[TKenrick]

[quote name='ARGH' post='246577' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:44 AM']Music education HAS become fast-track..you can have it now..FAME FAME FAME..Bullshit so called 'Music schools' (ACM being the most guilty in the UK) and magazines.[/quote]

Having spent the last 3 years at ACM I'm in agreement with this, up to a point. A large proportion of ACM students appear to be there because they think it'll make them famous, or because they can go there, not really do any work and still come out with a qualification at the end of it. The main issue is that ACM is run first and foremost as a business - it's all about throwing open the doors to the masses, putting bums on seats and raking in the money. As they don't have a formal audition procedure the quality control is almost non-existent, and the classes are therefore geared towards the lowest common denominator, which keeps the overall standard low. If they advertised it as a serious music school then the intake would drop massively, as would the profits, because the majority of teenagers today are conditioned to believe that becoming a famous musician requires very little work and even less talent.

I don't know if ACM is the most guilty of this approach, as I haven't attended any similar institutions. I think if you go in with a clear idea of what you want and realise that any improvements that you make as a player are down to having gone to classes, filtered out the crap, and put in the hours of practice then it's a great environment to be in. It's true that I could have arrived at the same level of musicianship without having done a degree, but it would have taken me a hell of a lot longer to get there.


Apologies for the slightly OT rant, back to the point...

In my opinion, Jeff's playing (in terms of the understanding and application of harmony) is outstanding. His music, on the other hand, is not to my tastes. I think that he's got some really valid opinions (except the metronome thing), but he expresses them in such a way that immediately alienates the majority of players.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='ARGH' post='246577' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:44 AM']Now Ive HAD to read on a gig,Ive not had to sight read...yet...because I dont play in those circles,But I sure as hell would love to,coz the pays a damn sight better than what Im on right now gig to gig.[/quote]

It's a bit strange for you to criticise establishments that offer serious musicians an opportunity to acquire those skills, when you say you'd like to be able to do the gigs that require that skill set, sounds like envy and bitterness to me.
There are some people in those places that have a the attitude you speak of but there are also plenty of really good ones that have gone on to cutting in the pro world having had the excellent opportunites colleges offer.
I feel you're allowing some words (not all) out of your bottom sir.

[The Funk]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='246932' date='Jul 24 2008, 03:03 PM']I feel you're allowing some words (not all) out of your bottom sir.[/quote]

Ah, that's a good un!

[ARGH]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='246932' date='Jul 24 2008, 03:03 PM']It's a bit strange for you to criticise establishments that offer serious musicians an opportunity to acquire those skills, when you say you'd like to be able to do the gigs that require that skill set, sounds like envy and bitterness to me.*
There are some people in those places that have a the attitude you speak of but there are also plenty of really good ones that have gone on to cutting in the pro world having had the excellent opportunites colleges offer.
I feel you're allowing some words (not all) out of your bottom sir.[/quote]
Where did they study? The pros I come across didnt study at a fly by night,cough up for fame place...Most seem to be Leeds or London,or they came from the hard slog of Pubs,clubs,WMCs etc etc..It might be different where you are. Alot seem to have studied music since secondary school,sometimes Upright,or Brass or Cello...and simply jumped on another instrument,it was a hard slog,not a 2 year "Heres your Dip kid.." place.

Considering Ive had the head of one of these schools,in front of me admitting he'd not had a session date for near on 3 years,and then I used to meet swarms of bods that talk a lot and play sweet fa on their instrument ,regardless of what it is...IMAGE CLASSES,for f***s sake,what the hell has that got to do with music,ok yes its business..and in the modern age you cant get away from that,but IMAGE over content??? If its looks that get you success,then why the f*** are we trying? How many crap Bands come out of these places..yeah ok a few have it...but the majority..well...I wonder if Bristols level of 'talent' will go down as the BIMM has opened there.I hope to f*** not because Damian Keyes is a really nice guy with a realistic vision,and idea upon education/expectation.

When the guy that Interviews you and asks what are your aims...looks over your shoulder,quietly walks to the door,checks no-ones about,closes it and whispers "Go to London..they dont want to do that here" ..looking at you square in the eye. It makes you question somewhat.

I CANT consider the majority of these establishments to BE serious...Its about cash....TOTALLY about cash,and false expectations,playing on hopes and dreams,yeah ok..play your instrument 8hrs a day 5 days a week,and you will get better,but it isnt an insurance of success..it just means you played your instrument alot,in the real world get a job. Get in a band and just play,it would save you a lot of time and energy,and expense,yes you will meet the great and the good,but they probably didnt go to a school.

Ive auditioned for these places,said what my aims were,what I intended to do,and how I felt their curriculum would help me achieve that..then listed my experience and been told,straight up....That I would be bored within a few months. It makes me wonder...

Compare Berklee's or Jeffs 'Players school' or even Leeds's curriculum to say another 'Modern/Popular music school'
Schools based on methods that work...Teachers trained as teachers not 'Ex name player' that can push record button or looks good onstage and has hung out at/with who/whatever...thats not education.

Consider this,in WORKING terms,who would have in a band..the 21 year old thats done 2 years at school,and can play all the licks in and out,but has never toured,nor played to any room bigger than a small theater witnessed by his own comtemporaries (yeah spelt wrong) teachers and a few friends/relatives and has ALL the gear nice and shiney. Or the Kid thats done 2 years gigging Pubs/Clubs/WMCs,Weddings,Functions etc,and has the ratty rig and Fender?





*Ive wanted those lessons,Im doing summat about it too..and it was stupid AM when I wrote the post,sorry fella.

Edited July 24, 2008 by ARGH

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='ARGH' post='247126' date='Jul 24 2008, 06:30 PM']*Ive wanted those lessons,Im doing summat about it too..and it was stupid AM when I wrote the post,sorry fella.[/quote]

No need to apologise mate. There is some truth in some of your points, but there are also some good people coming out of the places you speak of.

[Rich]

I never tire of listening to JB's performance on 'Joe Frazier'... blows my mind every time. I've never heard anything else of his that has come remotely close. His arrogance must be visible from the moon.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Rich' post='247769' date='Jul 25 2008, 01:04 PM']I never tire of listening to JB's performance on 'Joe Frazier'... blows my mind every time. I've never heard anything else of his that has come remotely close. His arrogance must be visible from the moon.[/quote]

I understand hot gas is the primary constituent of Jupiter.

[MB1]

MB1.
Cant see what all the fuss is about here?,that Jeff Berlins done nothing since that "War Of The Worlds" thing!

[Mcgiver69]

[quote name='MB1' post='247775' date='Jul 25 2008, 01:12 PM']MB1.
Cant see what all the fuss is about here?,that Jeff Berlins done nothing since that "War Of The Worlds" thing! [/quote]

Sorry mate you are wrong that was Herbie Flowers!

Having read one more "Jeff is a douche" post it makes me really sad, you know why because I met Jeff twice (one in NY and another back in my motherland) and he was the most reachable and nicest of guys, we even were joking about what people says of him! He gave me lots of good advice too.

What JB doesn't manage to do is to explain his point in a way that is easy for most people and sometimes he can sound really arrogant but I attribute that to some degree of frustration. Someone said that learning music doesn't teach you how to groove, well that is one of the most ludicrous statement I've seen, just think about 3 of your favourite players of all time and google a bit and you'll find that those guys learned music. Anyway JB comments are oriented to those guys who want to become professionals like Nathan East, Lee Sklar people who want to play professionally and not only one genre of music.

One of the points Jeff made the time we talked was that once you know what you're playing your speed increases because you know where you are going on the fingerboard. Another person said that JB played 3 notes in SB's bass and then gave it back, well he actually played something (in reality he was just a bit of tune) and gave it back but the point he made was that he was able to play that unlined fretless because he knew were the notes are, that's why he said give me one night (I think it was).

regarding Metronomes JB states clearly that they are not going to give you time and he is right, he told me that the metronome is only good to learn how to subdivide and if you want to get good timing you should be better of practicing with a drum machine.

I guess that the main problem with Jeff is that he doesn't like to spoon feed people but let them discover things by themselves.

Rich if you can get your hand on Alan Holdsworth "Water on the brain" to me that's Jeff's best solo ever.

Just my 2p.

Edited July 25, 2008 by Mcgiver69

[Jase]

[quote name='Mcgiver69' post='248011' date='Jul 25 2008, 05:09 PM']Sorry mate you are wrong that was Herbie Flowers!

Having read one more "Jeff is a douche" post it makes me really sad, you know why because I met Jeff twice (one in NY and another back in my motherland) and he was the most reachable and nicest of guys, we even were joking about what people says of him! He gave me lots of good advice too.

What JB doesn't manage to do is to explain his point in a way that is easy for most people and sometimes he can sound really arrogant but I attribute that to some degree of frustration. Someone said that learning music doesn't teach you how to groove, well that is one of the most ludicrous statement I've seen, just think about 3 of your favourite players of all time and google a bit and you'll find that those guys learned music. Anyway JB comments are oriented to those guys who want to become professionals like Nathan East, Lee Sklar people who want to play professionally and not only one genre of music.

One of the points Jeff made the time we talked was that once you know what you're playing your speed increases because you know where you are going on the fingerboard. Another person said that JB played 3 notes in SB's bass and then gave it back, well he actually played something (in reality he was just a bit of tune) and gave it back but the point he made was that he was able to play that unlined fretless because he knew were the notes are, that's why he said give me one night (I think it was).

regarding Metronomes JB states clearly that they are not going to give you time and he is right, he told me that the metronome is only good to learn how to subdivide and if you want to get good timing you should be better of practicing with a drum machine.

I guess that the main problem with Jeff is that he doesn't like to spoon feed people but let them discover things by themselves.

Rich if you can get your hand on Alan Holdsworth "Water on the brain" to me that's Jeff's best solo ever.

Just my 2p.[/quote]


Yep, I get tired of the Jeff comments, I don't agree with everything he says, he does make sense with lots of his points...and if he's a little arrogant, so what? He's still rated high in my book.

[The Funk]

[quote name='Mcgiver69' post='248011' date='Jul 25 2008, 06:09 PM']Someone said that learning music doesn't teach you how to groove, well that is one of the most ludicrous statement I've seen, just think about 3 of your favourite players of all time and google a bit and you'll find that those guys learned music.[/quote]

No, this is what I said.

[quote name='The Funk' post='246576' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:44 AM']Noone is discouraging people from reading music by stressing the importance of groove. In the same way that learning how to groove will not teach you how to read music, reading music will never teach you how to groove.[/quote]

And reading music will never teach you how to groove because groove is all about phrasing and that is not something which ever appears on a stave - and that is the reason why the best Classical musicians [i]are[/i] the best in their genre. If there are a thousand musicians who can all play the same notes from the same score, what makes the difference between them? Their phrasing.

I am not saying that reading music is not a beneficial thing for many other aspects of your playing. What I am saying is that you will not learn how to groove from dots on a page.

Edited July 26, 2008 by The Funk

[ARGH]

[quote name='The Funk' post='248223' date='Jul 26 2008, 01:20 AM']I am not saying that reading music is not a beneficial thing for many other aspects of your playing. What I am saying is that you will not learn how to groove from dots on a page.[/quote]

Quite a few thousand 60s,70s,80s funk,soul,R'n'B records would argue otherwise. As would a ton of session musicians,some coming from backgrounds that were not of the genre they were playing in or recording for. You play a line with a drummer,you cant help but lock up and 'groove'. If you cant ,you aint gonna be on the job.

I know what you mean about classical players incapable of 'feel',and improv skills,but they can play...and they get paid.