Musician's Wars

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='249440' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:55 AM']I personally believe you [i]can[/i] work with someone to enhance their groove playing.[/quote]

I'm in complete agreement with you on this one - and I think it's this one point that has me so worked up. I'd go one further and say that any teacher [i]must[/i] work with a student to enhance their groove playing and phrasing.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='249478' date='Jul 28 2008, 11:58 AM']This is endemic in the genre at the moment as far as I'm concerned he is not alone. I can't think of 1 'bass' album I would listen to twice. No music, just playing. I don't include bass players as composers/leaders in that, notable example of good stuff, eg Bass Desires Marc Johnson[/quote]

I'd be inclined to exclude Michael Manring, although the more I've listened to him, the more I've become aware that he recycles phrases and licks a fair bit. I'd like him to move onto other things too though.

There have been quite a few successful producer/bass players out there though, Trevor Horn, Youth, Don Was, Bernard (and Nile)...

[blamelouis]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='249403' date='Jul 28 2008, 09:58 AM']You have to remember that I was a Jeff Berlin devotee in my yoof! I have transcriptions somewhere of some of his bass solos on 'Pump It' and Champions' (my own work) and used to pride myself on my ability to execute some of his solos in real-time. I think Berlin has kind of become a parody of himself. His sound has thinned out in order to allow him to play chordally but he has, as a result, lost a lot of what I liked about his early playing (I particularly love his work on Allan Holdsworth's 'Road Games'). His forays into rock and jazz (and country) are a little embarrasing - he clearly doesn't understand the genres in question and will never make a mark that way as he is not delivering anything with integrity. People (audiences) can see through that kind of superficiality very easily.

I want him to do something classy but he keeps delivering pompous self-indulgence. As I said, I want to like his stuff but don't. He is becoming a jack of no trades and master of none. His teaching methods are uncontentious - he is just doing what 1,000s of standard music teachers do. Teaching the dots and basic music theory. Where he irritates me is when he starts talking in absolutes.[/quote]


I have to agree , i was the biggest Jeff Berlin nut on the planet at the "Pump it" release and loved the guy some of the trio work with John McLaughlin was astounding.
BUT the last couple of albums have been wallpaper,soulless pointless drivel (Tears in heaven was embarrassing ).
And was i othe only one on myspace to get an embarrssing message from him looking for norah jones contact address because he thought he could make her famous?

Sorry Jeff but you've musically lost the plot.

[Bilbo]

Every third myspace bulletin message I get is from Jeff Berlin seeking the contact details for someone he wants to gain reflected glory from. 'If I can get Andreas Bocelli to record one of my songs, I am made for life'...yeah, right. Just write something without the bass in mind and you've got a chance, Jeff.

[blamelouis]

Have to say rather off topic i have a great bootleg somewhere of Kai Eckhardt with John McLaughlin doing a fantastic version of Joe Frazier .

[ARGH]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='249338' date='Jul 28 2008, 08:41 AM']Sure, if the criticism bothers you then just write and play something that will shut them up. If you can't walk the walk, don't talk the talk. In the meantime I think you should get over it. Most mature players learn to stay within their limitations and, like Amy Winehouse and her singing technique, they make the most of what they have. Limitations can add distinctiveness, just look at Jamerson and his hook.

But thats off-topic and the rest of the membership has probably had enough of your 9 string rants already I suspect.[/quote]
What is the point of this Steve? You speak for all now?

"Most Mature players learn to stay within their limitations and make the most of what they have...."

WTF is THAT supposed to mean? Reach point 'A',and stop?

Please dont make it personal,Im learning,Im trying,I dont want 'limitations'....

Edited July 28, 2008 by ARGH

[Mcgiver69]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='249478' date='Jul 28 2008, 11:58 AM']This is endemic in the genre at the moment as far as I'm concerned he is not alone. I can't think of 1 'bass' album I would listen to twice. No music, just playing. I don't include bass players as composers/leaders in that, notable example of good stuff, eg Bass Desires Marc Johnson


So does Marcus Miller.... no wait.....
It's just business, they all want to capitalise on their 'name' and with companies willing to have a punt because they are, or have been, famous session dudes.

I'm being facetious, but being great players and sometimes producers does not mean they are automatically going to create works that wil live on. I don't blame them for earning a crust in a fad but I am just not into the whole 'bass on top' thing apart from in a few very particular compositionally appropriate circumstances.[/quote]

Exactly what I've always said about Marcus Miller and keep getting hammered by people. I will admit it I went to a MM gig a couple of years ago and ended up missing half the gig because I fell asleep! I couldn't stand the barrage of slap and pop anymore. I woke up twice once he started playing the clarinet and the other when he played some of Luther Vandross's stuff and the public started singing along to it.

I grew bored of his sound and technique to me is all the same and with no quirkiness. I still like some of his old stuff though.

As for JB I agree that his last efforts haven't been good at all, I think he is trying too much to be a soloist and not a bassist and that is where he is lost. I love the stuff he did in fusion but not much the present stuff.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Mcgiver69

[EntropicLqd]

I read the whole thread. I think I'd like some of my life back. About half way through I came to the conclusion that I actually didn't care any more.

When I first started playing I was completely anti any suggestion of learning to read music. It was dull, boring, and I saw it as simply taking time away from playing bass.

Now, almost 2 decades on, I am learning music theory and seriously considering learning to read music. Because I've reached the point where it will actually make me a better player. And understanding why some of the stuff I play naturally now sounds right would be useful.

So while I sit in the "learn music your own way" camp, I will concede that if I'd had to learn to read music a long time ago (even 15 years ago) I'd definitely be better player than I am now.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Jase' post='248582' date='Jul 26 2008, 07:17 PM']Jeff sees through the nonsense.....simple! [/quote]

I wonder who will be first with the page of paraphrased Chuck Norrisisms...

[Jase]

[quote name='tauzero' post='250279' date='Jul 29 2008, 10:00 AM']I wonder who will be first with the page of paraphrased Chuck Norrisisms...[/quote]

Explain? Chuck Norris? I'm lost! Did he say what I posted then?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='EntropicLqd' post='250003' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:02 PM']When I first started playing I was completely anti any suggestion of learning to read music. It was dull, boring, and I saw it as simply taking time away from playing bass.

Now, almost 2 decades on, I am learning music theory and seriously considering learning to read music. Because I've reached the point where it will actually make me a better player. And understanding why some of the stuff I play naturally now sounds right would be useful.

So while I sit in the "learn music your own way" camp, I will concede that if I'd had to learn to read music a long time ago (even 15 years ago) I'd definitely be better player than I am now.[/quote]

The trouble with instruments like the bass is that people are encouraged to approach it casually and are offered all sorts of short cuts to perceived competence - 'play in a day' books can easily get someone up to playing a song all the way through in a relatively short time frame. Try that with a piano, a bassoon, violin or saxophone.

Because of that, learners struggle to see the benefits of investing long hours in proper study. People all around them will start to justify their lack of investment with all sorts of statments about how proper study undermines your instinctive abilities, undermines your ability to play 'with feeling' etc. It is perfectly possible to play in a gigging band without any theory or 'proper' technique so people do. This affirms their 'I don't need to study' mentality and they proceed accordingly until one day, two years in or ten, they start to see the benefits they missed out on. By then, for many people, it is too late and domestic obligations prevent sustained study.

I think the most important skill a new player can have is the development of a critical sense that allows them to recognise what is useful information that will help their progress as a player and what isn't. Who is giving you the right information. That way, whatever Jeff Berlin says can be critically analysed and informed decisions about the most appropriate way forward for a developing player can be made. Like most of us, JB can talk sense one minute and unmitigated b******S the next. We need to be able to recognise the difference.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Jase' post='250280' date='Jul 29 2008, 11:06 AM'][quote name='tauzero' post='250279' date='Jul 29 2008, 11:00 AM']
I wonder who will be first with the page of paraphrased Chuck Norrisisms...[/quote]
Explain? Chuck Norris? I'm lost! Did he say what I posted then?
[/quote]

No, if you look [url="http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/"]here[/url], you'll find a lot of Chuck Norrisisms, for example:

Chuck Norris doesn't read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.

When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn’t lifting himself up, he’s pushing the Earth down.


When you said

Jeff sees through the nonsense.....simple!


it just reminded me of them. So I just wondered when we might get some Jeff Berlinisms, like, er:

There were no such things as flats until Jeff Berlin hammered them out of naturals

[Bilbo]

Jeff Berlins approaches the dichotomies that exist within music education with a completely open mouth.

[Jase]

[quote name='tauzero' post='250288' date='Jul 29 2008, 10:23 AM']Explain? Chuck Norris? I'm lost! Did he say what I posted then?


No, if you look [url="http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/"]here[/url], you'll find a lot of Chuck Norrisisms, for example:

Chuck Norris doesn't read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.

When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn’t lifting himself up, he’s pushing the Earth down.


When you said

Jeff sees through the nonsense.....simple!


it just reminded me of them. So I just wondered when we might get some Jeff Berlinisms, like, er:

There were no such things as flats until Jeff Berlin hammered them out of naturals[/quote]


Ohhhh, I see, I like the pushing down the earth one!

[Jase]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='250287' date='Jul 29 2008, 10:20 AM']The trouble with instruments like the bass is that people are encouraged to approach it casually and are offered all sorts of short cuts to perceived competence - 'play in a day' books can easily get someone up to playing a song all the way through in a relatively short time frame. Try that with a piano, a bassoon, violin or saxophone.

Because of that, learners struggle to see the benefits of investing long hours in proper study. People all around them will start to justify their lack of investment with all sorts of statments about how proper study undermines your instinctive abilities, undermines your ability to play 'with feeling' etc. It is perfectly possible to play in a gigging band without any theory or 'proper' technique so people do. This affirms their 'I don't need to study' mentality and they proceed accordingly until one day, two years in or ten, they start to see the benefits they missed out on. By then, for many people, it is too late and domestic obligations prevent sustained study.

I think the most important skill a new player can have is the development of a critical sense that allows them to recognise what is useful information that will help their progress as a player and what isn't. Who is giving you the right information. That way, whatever Jeff Berlin says can be critically analysed and informed decisions about the most appropriate way forward for a developing player can be made. Like most of us, JB can talk sense one minute and unmitigated b******S the next. We need to be able to recognise the difference.[/quote]

Nicely put. I was one of those players......I stupidly thought that theory would hold back my natural instincts as a bass player, all my playing has come from meeting other players bad gigs, good gigs, imitating by ear...thousands of hours listening and applying things in a way I thought was right....I still do it..... BUT! these days I often think about what I've missed out on in theory.... I am totally convinced that I would be a better player if I'd studied earlier in life, to apply myself now is so difficult. I still agree with a lot of what JB has to say about music education.

[The Funk]

I love how some people interpreted my "reading will not teach you how to groove, just as grooving will not teach you how to read" comments as "reading is not useful" or even "theory is not useful".

What I was trying to get across is that "reading", "harmony" and "groove" are all different things and that "groove" is one of the most fundamental and often neglected. To suggest that "groove" cannot be taught or improved, or that it should not be taught and that "reading" is more important is nonsense.

And Jeff Berlin's swimmer analogy, stupid as it is, can be used to demonstrate this. When you first learn to swim, one of the first things you learn [i]is[/i] how to stay afloat.

Edited July 29, 2008 by The Funk

[blamelouis]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='250287' date='Jul 29 2008, 11:20 AM']The trouble with instruments like the bass is that people are encouraged to approach it casually and are offered all sorts of short cuts to perceived competence - 'play in a day' books can easily get someone up to playing a song all the way through in a relatively short time frame. Try that with a piano, a bassoon, violin or saxophone.

Because of that, learners struggle to see the benefits of investing long hours in proper study. People all around them will start to justify their lack of investment with all sorts of statments about how proper study undermines your instinctive abilities, undermines your ability to play 'with feeling' etc. It is perfectly possible to play in a gigging band without any theory or 'proper' technique so people do. This affirms their 'I don't need to study' mentality and they proceed accordingly until one day, two years in or ten, they start to see the benefits they missed out on. By then, for many people, it is too late and domestic obligations prevent sustained study.

I think the most important skill a new player can have is the development of a critical sense that allows them to recognise what is useful information that will help their progress as a player and what isn't. Who is giving you the right information. That way, whatever Jeff Berlin says can be critically analysed and informed decisions about the most appropriate way forward for a developing player can be made. Like most of us, JB can talk sense one minute and unmitigated b******S the next. We need to be able to recognise the difference.[/quote]
BOLLOX

[Bilbo]

You are, of course, entitled to disagree.

My point was to suggest that people make a critical assessment of your position before moving on it. If they agree with you, then they, and they alone, are responsible for the outcome of any decisions informed by your submissions.

That shouldn't take too long

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='246599' date='Jul 24 2008, 08:24 AM']I think a lot of people have a problem with Jeff because he's sometimes right, but sometimes quite mistaken, and often in the same sentance![/quote]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='250287' date='Jul 29 2008, 11:20 AM']Like most of us, JB can talk sense one minute and unmitigated b******S the next. We need to be able to recognise the difference.[/quote]
I think thats the same point I made earlier.

[EntropicLqd]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='250287' date='Jul 29 2008, 11:20 AM']The trouble with instruments like the bass is that people are encouraged to approach it casually and are offered all sorts of short cuts to perceived competence....Because of that, learners struggle to see the benefits of investing long hours in proper study....[/quote]
Not me ... I was just lazy.

I've since learned the benefit of hard work ... but sadly a little too late for it to be really really useful. I need to go back in time and slap myself around the head a bit I think.

[The Funk]

Victor Wooten and Jeff Berlin, in action together

[Jase]

[quote name='The Funk' post='250800' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:54 PM']Victor Wooten and Jeff Berlin, in action together

[/quote]



That was just gorgeous!

[wombatboter]

At least it is a big advantage when you're able to write down that great bassline you just found instead of having to call your own mobile phone to play it on your voice-mail...
I met Jeff Berlin a couple of years ago after his gig in Belgium, talked to him for awhile and he was a nice guy, not pretentious or anything... He played really well and I have never heard anyone play bass so melodically ànd so fast...He is in a league of his own and he challenges himself everytime..
I heard from the sound-engineer that he was a bit demanding about the hired amp set-up and he wanted to have the cabinets changed during the soundcheck and then back to the same set-up again and so on (4x10 on top, 15 on the floor, back again etc...) but the playing was amazing ànd he is a funny man...

[Oscar South]

[quote name='The Funk' post='250800' date='Jul 29 2008, 08:54 PM']Victor Wooten and Jeff Berlin, in action together

[/quote]

That was the worst thing I've ever heard, 10 minutes of pretentious jazz noodling while pulling 'arty' faces to uninteresting muddy sounding rhythm backing. Not only that But both (Berlin moreso) played some downright bad music in their solos, poor note choices (don't pretend they were trying to be arty, when you stop on notes that sound downright unmusical at that frequency in otherwise generic jazz soloing it isn't intensional), poor melodic flow etc. etc. Maybe theres some musical value in it somewhere but thats pretty much the worst I've seen of both those musicians.

[crez5150]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='251528' date='Jul 30 2008, 06:33 PM']That was the worst thing I've ever heard, 10 minutes of pretentious jazz noodling while pulling 'arty' faces to uninteresting muddy sounding rhythm backing. Not only that But both (Berlin moreso) played some downright bad music in their solos, poor note choices (don't pretend they were trying to be arty, when you stop on notes that sound downright unmusical at that frequency in otherwise generic jazz soloing it isn't intensional), poor melodic flow etc. etc. Maybe theres some musical value in it somewhere but thats pretty much the worst I've seen of both those musicians.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.....