Musician's Wars

[OutToPlayJazz]

I think a lot of you are completely missing the point here...

The same as the old saying, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", no piece of music or soloing can be described as "un-musical." The content of music can be whatever we want it to be, whatever out imaginations can come up with, [b]whereas it's how we interpret & play it that causes it to be musical or otherwise.[/b]

As for limitations... Yes, sometimes we have to sit back a bit & admit that we can't play something. But I tend to think more on the lines of, "I can't play this [b]yet[/b]." Actually not being able to play something is a spur for us to learn a new technique, find out a way of doing it. This is the whole point of being a musician. Not playing the same old boring sh*t for decades, but pushing the boundaries and finding something new and interesting to play.

This is why people like Victor Wooten & Jeff Berlin are so important. They inspire us to be better bass players. Period.

Did anyone noitice Victa's little response on his site? Very subtle & very Wooten.

*Climbs off soapbox*

Edited July 30, 2008 by OutToPlayJazz

[Jase]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='251528' date='Jul 30 2008, 05:33 PM']That was the worst thing I've ever heard, 10 minutes of pretentious jazz noodling while pulling 'arty' faces to uninteresting muddy sounding rhythm backing. Not only that But both (Berlin moreso) played some downright bad music in their solos, poor note choices (don't pretend they were trying to be arty, when you stop on notes that sound downright unmusical at that frequency in otherwise generic jazz soloing it isn't intensional), poor melodic flow etc. etc. Maybe theres some musical value in it somewhere but thats pretty much the worst I've seen of both those musicians.[/quote]

I thought that was a great performance by Victor, in the moment...same for Jeff. Not sure how you can make judgement when you refer to it as Jazz noodling....there was more than just jazz!

[Mcgiver69]

Lets see, so Jazz has to be only trad or bop? I thought that the main concept of Jazz was that your imagination was the limit. Cheap shots are easy specially when your body of work can be written in a sheet of toilet paper.

Music is art and by any means you can't talk about poor note choices when you are improvising. I tell you some people .......

Edited July 30, 2008 by Mcgiver69

[Oscar South]

Music is subjective, you can't debate the truth of my statements due to that fact! Mwahahahaha.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Oscar South

[Mcgiver69]

very true, too.

MWAHHHHHHH!

[wombatboter]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='251642' date='Jul 30 2008, 07:58 PM']I think a lot of you are completely missing the point here...

The same as the old saying, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", no piece of music or soloing can be described as "un-musical." The content of music can be whatever we want it to be, whatever out imaginations can come up with, [b]whereas it's how we interpret & play it that causes it to be musical or otherwise.[/b]

As for limitations... Yes, sometimes we have to sit back a bit & admit that we can't play something. But I tend to think more on the lines of, "I can't play this [b]yet[/b]." Actually not being able to play something is a spur for us to learn a new technique, find out a way of doing it. This is the whole point of being a musician. Not playing the same old boring sh*t for decades, but pushing the boundaries and finding something new and interesting to play.

This is why people like Victor Wooten & Jeff Berlin are so important. They inspire us to be better bass players. Period.

Did anyone noitice Victa's little response on his site? Very subtle & very Wooten.

*Climbs off soapbox*[/quote]

+1 ... well said

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Mcgiver69' post='251759' date='Jul 30 2008, 11:52 PM']Music is art and by any means you can't talk about poor note choices when you are improvising.[/quote]

Yes you can. There is a massive difference between a wrong note and a subjectively poor choice - the logic of any given line is determined by what comes before it and what comes after. Anyone familiar with any genre in music will be able to recognise the difference. If you go for a 6th and hit a sharp 5, its a wrong note. If you INTEND to play a sharp five and hit it, its not.

It can still suck tho'

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='251642' date='Jul 30 2008, 08:58 PM']This is why people like Victor Wooten & Jeff Berlin are so important. They inspire us to be better bass players. Period.[/quote]

Well, that particular example didn't inspire me to do anything other than turn it off.


After thought: Perhaps it did inspire me never to try to play like that, so that probably will make me a better bass player!
As they say 'no-one is useless, even the worse of us can act as a bad example'

Ducking quickly as I press the 'add reply' button.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='251840' date='Jul 31 2008, 09:06 AM']Yes you can. There is a massive difference between a wrong note and a subjectively poor choice - the logic of any given line is determined by what comes before it and what comes after. Anyone familiar with any genre in music will be able to recognise the difference. If you go for a 6th and hit a sharp 5, its a wrong note. If you INTEND to play a sharp five and hit it, its not.[/quote]

This is a strange attitude from someone who loves Jazz so much!

Surely it should be "there's no logic to music, you just have to learn to groove like a cat who's in touch with his soul".

[Bilbo]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='251894' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:40 AM']This is a strange attitude from someone who loves Jazz so much!

Surely it should be "there's no logic to music, you just have to learn to groove like a cat who's in touch with his soul".[/quote]

You really don't get jazz, do you?

[Jase]

I had to watch it again....from 4.50 until the end is great, brilliant grooving with feel in Victors solo improv!

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='251894' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:40 AM']This is a strange attitude from someone who loves Jazz so much!

Surely it should be "there's no logic to music, you just have to learn to groove like a cat who's in touch with his soul".[/quote]

In actuality you can play anything, and you can play any note - if you are talking about note choices. The notes chosen do not matter as much as the harmonic context in which they are played against, and the duration & frequency for which these notes are played. So Messrs. Scofield and Corea et al, or for that matter Messrs. Wooten and Berlin in this context, can go outside the harmonic context, but it resolves in the end or ends as may be in modern jazz structures. How the improvised notes work against the harmonic context as a spur of the moment composition is how you'd judge it.

Frankly you do not find this in jazz only, you'll find it in pop, country, blues, rock etc. The suspension of the out of traditional harmonic context is usually at endings or in passing in pop music - you hear it all the time.. .from Roy Orbison to John Lennon. For the bass player, whose role in establishing or implying harmonic structure, outside of taking a solo, you'd hear a lot of jarring notes particularly with slappers who play repeated patterned licks with dominant 7ths when the harmonic contexts are anything but.

You are right that there is no logic to music, music has never been prone to think or operate like Vulcans. But there is harmonic structure in music, whether it is ancient Babylonian reed flutes or Ornette Coleman's supposedly free jazz.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='251902' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:57 AM']You really don't get jazz, do you? [/quote]

I suppose you're right! I wish I had realised this a year ago when I decided to set up a nice condensor mic in the bog and record the goings on of my household for a week. Then I edited it down to 40 minutes, but I used "jazz editing" which is like normal editing but with the speakers off. Entitled "sounds of the bog" I mailed it out to 100s of jazz labels marketed as "down and dirty fusion jazz" but it never got anywhere. What a waste of time and money!

[wombatboter]

What bothers me sometimes is that through the power of internet I experience bass-players picking on musicians like Berlin, Wooten, etc... with comments like "That playing sucks" "Terrible" "worst playing I've ever seen or heard".
When you do have the opportunity of meeting these anonymous bassplayers with their big opinions about practically everybody and you see how théy play (with sometimes the occasional sloppy octave as their biggest sign of any musical imagination) I sometimes wonder where those people get the nerve to criticize world famous musicians who have worked their asses off to get as good as they are..
I'm not saying that well-known musicians are closer to God but before I post any comment on somebody's playing I think about my personal goals, the commitment of certain musicians, their struggles and achievements.
What certain bassists have accomplished (and that goes for Cliff Burton, McCartney, Mick Karn, Lemmy, etc....) should be slightly considered before one posts any cheap or quick comment imho...

[Bilbo]

I understand what you are saying, wombatboter, but I think you need to understand that all people are doing is poorly expressing their belief that the work of the artists under consideration is subjectively of little value to them.

My personal take on these things is to draw on my own experience as a player and listener and to draw people's attention to the difference between valuing a piece of music and recognising the technical skills required to execute it. For a developing musician, it is easy to get into the space where 'hard' pieces of music are 'good' pieces of music, a fact that is palpably wrong. It is equally dangerous, however, for the uninformed to assume that a 'complex' piece of music is bad because it 'lacks emotion', 'fails to communicate' etc. The secret is to develop the critical sense required to recognise the value of a piece in its own right. It is equally not enough to say 'all music is good and I like it all'. The assessment of the intrinsic value of a piece of music is subjective but that doesn't mean that it serves no purpose to discuss it. Its just not helpful to use aggressive and unspecific terms like 's***e', 'b******s and cr*p. They contribute nothing to the debate other than stating a position.

Edited July 31, 2008 by bilbo230763

[wombatboter]

I couldn't have said it any better ...(except in Dutch)

[The Funk]

[quote name='Mcgiver69' post='251759' date='Jul 30 2008, 11:52 PM']Cheap shots are easy specially when your body of work can be written in a sheet of toilet paper.[/quote]

Ouch! Oscar has his own way. He doesn't like Jazz, he hates Funk - and he pretty much hates everyone else's music. That's just his way.

[quote name='wombatboter' post='251930' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:31 AM']What bothers me sometimes is that through the power of internet I experience bass-players picking on musicians like Berlin, Wooten, etc... with comments like "That playing sucks" "Terrible" "worst playing I've ever seen or heard".
When you do have the opportunity of meeting these anonymous bassplayers with their big opinions about practically everybody and you see how théy play (with sometimes the occasional sloppy octave as their biggest sign of any musical imagination) I sometimes wonder where those people get the nerve to criticize world famous musicians who have worked their asses off to get as good as they are.. [...]
What certain bassists have accomplished (and that goes for Cliff Burton, McCartney, Mick Karn, Lemmy, etc....) should be slightly considered before one posts any cheap or quick comment imho...[/quote]

Agree with you, with the sole exception being Tal Wilkenfeld. I still can't see what any of the fuss is about and will continue to post comments along those lines until someone either explains it to me or she starts playing as well as everyone says she does.

Edited July 31, 2008 by The Funk

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='wombatboter' post='251930' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:31 AM']What bothers me sometimes is that through the power of internet I experience bass-players picking on musicians like Berlin, Wooten, etc... with comments like "That playing sucks" "Terrible" "worst playing I've ever seen or heard".
When you do have the opportunity of meeting these anonymous bassplayers with their big opinions about practically everybody and you see how théy play (with sometimes the occasional sloppy octave as their biggest sign of any musical imagination) I sometimes wonder where those people get the nerve to criticize world famous musicians who have worked their asses off to get as good as they are..
I'm not saying that well-known musicians are closer to God but before I post any comment on somebody's playing I think about my personal goals, the commitment of certain musicians, their struggles and achievements.
What certain bassists have accomplished (and that goes for Cliff Burton, McCartney, Mick Karn, Lemmy, etc....) should be slightly considered before one posts any cheap or quick comment imho...[/quote]

Well said.

It used to annoy me when I saw people making stupid comments about someone elses playing, there is the now infamous Janek Gwizdala and Steve Lawson thread earlier in the year as an example of stupid and yobbish posting.

Now I just ignore it and laugh at them.
The people making the comments obviously think in their own minds that their own playing is better, when in reality it isn't.
Which is why the people the comments are about, are making records and travelling around the world playing to audiences, and the person making the comment probably doesn't get any further than playing Mustang Sally to drunks at the local.

[Oscar South]

[quote name='The Funk' post='251956' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:55 AM']Ouch! Oscar has his own way. He doesn't like Jazz, he hates Funk - and he pretty much hates everyone else's music. That's just his way.[/quote]

Heh, you're pretty much correct there , I actually love jazz though on top of it influencing everything I play, I also play double bass in a jazz band that I founded myself, I love it for its musical value though and I hate the pretensiousness that often comes with it, I also can't stand it when people try to put what I would call bad playing down to 'jazz artistry'. I don't really *hate* funk, I loved it for probably longer than I've loved any other genre and got sick of it, plus I was somewhat just taking a contrary stand to try and get some discussion going.

What I think people don't realise is that many people on the internet become a 'charicature' of themselves in reality. I certainly am, on the net I'm hypercritical and I make opinionated stands on controvercial issues for the sake of discussion and I guess my own amusement (who doesn't like sharing their opinions eh?). Another thing is that this 'X player has accomplished so much more than you so you can't critisise him/her' thing has to stop, anyone can have an opinion and voice it about anyone, theres no pre-requisite requirement to meet.

Anyway, I'll rephrase my statement for the sake of argument.. "Thats some of the worst playing I've ever heard from a virtuoso musician". -_-

Edited July 31, 2008 by Oscar South

[Bilbo]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='251964' date='Jul 31 2008, 12:04 PM']The people making the comments obviously think in their own minds that their own playing is better, when in reality it isn't.[/quote]

No they don't. They know that they are not as capable as the people they criticise but, in order to increase their self esteem, they negate the value of the things they can't do in an effort to subconsciously justify the fact that they can't or won't do the work necessary to attain those skills. The tragedy is that they actually have to work astonishingly hard on their train of self-talk in order to maintain a belief in what they are saying.

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='252011' date='Jul 31 2008, 01:09 PM']No they don't. They know that they are not as capable as the people they criticise but, in order to increase their self esteem, they negate the value of the things they can't do in an effort to subconsciously justify the fact that they can't or won't do the work necessary to attain those skills. The tragedy is that they actually have to work astonishingly hard on their train of self-talk in order to maintain a belief in what they are saying.[/quote]

Are you sure that's what it is?

When I make critical comments about people (eg. Tal Wilkenfeld), it's usually not that I think I am better than them. It's partly envy ("why does she get to play with such and such...?"), but most of it is having a clear idea of how I want to approach music - and seeing their work as a pefect embodiment of many of the things I want to avoid.

Even if someone else has been playing a lot longer than you and is objectively a "better" player than you and has played with much better musicians than you have, that doesn't mean it's wrong to develop your own approach to playing as early on as possible. When you reach a certain level of maturity (which I haven't completely), then it's far easier not to criticise people who take a different approach to the one you're aspiring to.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='252011' date='Jul 31 2008, 01:09 PM']No they don't. They know that they are not as capable as the people they criticise but, in order to increase their self esteem, they negate the value of the things they can't do in an effort to subconsciously justify the fact that they can't or won't do the work necessary to attain those skills. The tragedy is that they actually have to work astonishingly hard on their train of self-talk in order to maintain a belief in what they are saying.[/quote]

I think that's erroneous bilbo! I'm not as good a bass player as Victor Wooten, but it wouldn't stop me criticising something I hear, just like I cannot play the piano, but I can quite happily critique a piano peice. So if someone who is considered a piano virtuoso played a peice and it sounded crap to me, I would say "I think that's utter crap" and it wouldn't have anything to do with my self esteem.

[quote name='Oscar South' post='252003' date='Jul 31 2008, 01:02 PM']Another thing is that this 'X player has accomplished so much more than you so you can't critisise him/her' thing has to stop, anyone can have an opinion and voice it about anyone, theres no pre-requisite requirement to meet.[/quote]

Damn right!!!


Loads of very accomplshed painters probably thought Van Gough was crap, and voiced it. I'm sure lots of crap painters also thought he was crap. Now everyone thinks he was amazing. Van Gough probably had some strong opinions on other painters, and those painters probably said the same as Bilbo about him "he just calls us crap 'cos he's crap himself".

Just because someone is popular or not, is not an actual indication of their creative ability, if creative ability can be quantified at all.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='252003' date='Jul 31 2008, 01:02 PM']Another thing is that this 'X player has accomplished so much more than you so you can't critisise him/her' thing has to stop, anyone can have an opinion and voice it about anyone, theres no pre-requisite requirement to meet.[/quote]

Spot on!

To suggest that someone has to be proficient, or be better at something, in order to hold and express an opinion is ridiculous and ultimately dangerous.

before long we would not be able to:

Dislike a particular beer (as we couldn't brew it ourself)
Express a preference for a football team (unless you could do better yourself)
Make a choice about which restaurant to go to
Fancy a member of the opposite sex (i'm not a woman, so how could I possibly have an opinion about one)
"
"
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"
"
Vote!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='252003' date='Jul 31 2008, 01:02 PM']I was somewhat just taking a contrary stand to try and get some discussion going.[/quote]

[i]"How dare you, how very, very dare you"[/i]

[wombatboter]

I can agree with that point of view and indeed everyone has the right to say what he wants about a certain player even if his status is rated really high...
What I miss in a lot in these comments is an explanation why they don't like it ... I feel that most of them just easily put it down without any justification, it feels disrespectful and arrogant sometimes. It's that bold "pfff" without saying anything and is really impolite..
You might not be a Wooten fan but you certainly can't say that he is not musical or an adventurous musician... Whatever you like his music or not is not important, as long as I get a comment which is a bit longer than "I just can't listen to that crap for more than a minute" or "I think Geddy Lee plays a lot better than Jaco..."
As soon as you point out to someone that his comments are weak and pointless you get the answer "But I've got the right to be like that since it's a free world" Indeed it is but before you write something down think about if it's of any use to someone...
Sorry for my choice of words but it's not that easy in English..

Edited July 31, 2008 by wombatboter