Musician's Wars

[The Funk]

[quote name='wombatboter' post='252215' date='Jul 31 2008, 06:10 PM']Sorry for my choice of words but it's not that easy in English..[/quote]

Your English is better than most of ours. You should hear my Walloon.

Back to your points, I am a Wooten fan. I think he's an excellent bass player. After this thread, I decided to check out a little Jeff Berlin. Turns out he's a pretty good bass player himself!

I get what you're saying about people not giving an explanation for why they don't like something. But sometimes people dislike every single part of something - then they can't possibly tell you which aspect they don't like.

[tauzero]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='251642' date='Jul 30 2008, 08:58 PM']Did anyone noitice Victa's little response on his site? Very subtle & very Wooten.[/quote]
So little and so subtle that I haven't managed to find it. And of course using a framed site means that you can't post a direct pointer to the page in question...

[Bilbo]

My point was simply that any discussion of the relative merits of a player or his work should be based on a reasoned argument and not just a casual 'he's sh*te'. If anyone here says that 'the importance of Tal thingumybob is, for instance, due to her gender not her playing which, while competent, is unremarkable', then I will listen to that argument and decide its validity as you did on my point. If someone just says she is crap or superb, I have nothing to thing about and will almost always dismiss the contribution as blunt and of no value.

Don't just tell me, tell me why.

Edited August 1, 2008 by bilbo230763

[Oscar South]

Is this still related back to my critisism of the Wooten/Berlin video or are we detached from that now? Because I gave a pretty specific explanation of what I didn't like about it.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Oscar South

[Bilbo]

No - response was to Cheddatom's accusation of erroneousness on my part!

To think....

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='252637' date='Aug 1 2008, 12:16 PM']No - response was to Cheddatom's accusation of erroneousness on my part!

To think.... [/quote]

I think the impression I got from your post was that you were refferring to any criticism of so called "virtuoso" musicians by anyone without a comparable ability as pointless (at the least). Fair enough that you would prefer people to articulate their opinions clearly instead of just say "that's crap". I obviously missed the "that's crap" style criticisms.

[blamelouis]

[quote name='The Funk' post='252241' date='Jul 31 2008, 06:46 PM']Your English is better than most of ours. You should hear my Walloon.

Back to your points, I am a Wooten fan. I think he's an excellent bass player. After this thread, I decided to check out a little Jeff Berlin. Turns out he's a pretty good bass player himself!

I get what you're saying about people not giving an explanation for why they don't like something. But sometimes people dislike every single part of something - then they can't possibly tell you which aspect they don't like.[/quote]

Heres another cat among the pigeons !!

Are they good BASS PLAYERS ?

Who gets more work Jeff Berlin or Ron Carter?

[mcgraham]

I've dipped in and out of this thread, taking what I can from it. In response to Berlin's comments, I agree with his stance on learning theory (that it's good to do so) and that we should approach music in a more serious way. When I say 'serious', I do not mean in a sober, work-like manner; I mean that (I feel) we should be pursuing excellence in our musical endeavours, and avoiding complacency. I do NOT agree with his sober attitude that seems to prescribe a militaristic necessity to do things that way. Let's really be objective here, music is an art form, a beautiful God-given medium; it's something to be enjoyed, in the playing of, the listening of and the making of. But even then, it's not the end all and be all of life.

Someone said earlier that JB comes across as bitter, that he may feel that the way things are is unfair. Well, whilst I don't think being bitter is the right response (or even helpful or useful), I can definitely sympathise with him there. There are few things I find more depressing than seeing inept/complacent/poorly skilled musicians making an absolute fortune, whilst committed/dedicated/talented musicians struggle to make ends meet (saying nothing about songwriting ability). The only thing I can think of right now that is more depressing than that is that the public (in general) have difficulty discerning the difference between the skilled and the unskilled.

Personally, I love the fact that anyone can pick up a bass, guitar, piano etc for a song (at least to start) and can gain access to basic lessons for free off the net. It makes the making of music, and the associated joy of that, so much more accessible than ever before. [i]Unfortunately[/i], few people seem to progress beyond that first stage. Whilst music is not the end all and be all of life (as I said above), it does make the modern musical world a fairly surreal one to play in.

Re: opinions - we're all entitled to them but ill-informed/mis-informed opinions spouted and insisted upon based little more than assertion are just absurd.
Re: Tal, I also do not see what the fuss is about. I see a reliable female bassist who can hold a groove (I'd gladly have her as a bassist), but with fairly formulaic lines, at least when improvising. Not much more than that TBH.

Mark

[The Funk]

[quote name='blamelouis' post='252793' date='Aug 1 2008, 02:38 PM']Heres another cat among the pigeons !!

Are they good BASS PLAYERS ?

Who gets more work Jeff Berlin or Ron Carter?[/quote]

Ron Carter - but luckily for him, he started off in an era before the birth of the "bass hero" so he didn't get caught up in all the nonsense. I'm not a fan of Jeff Berlin and I was pretty critical of his comments earlier in this thread, but there's no denying that the man can play the bass.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='252799' date='Aug 1 2008, 02:43 PM']There are few things I find more depressing than seeing inept/complacent/poorly skilled musicians making an absolute fortune, whilst committed/dedicated/talented musicians struggle to make ends meet (saying nothing about songwriting ability). The only thing I can think of right now that is more depressing than that is that the public (in general) have difficulty discerning the difference between the skilled and the unskilled.[/quote]

Mark, it strikes me that you have possibly unknowingly, in your comment above, pointed out a very significant factor in the public's appreciation of music.
I feel some musicians have a tendency to shake their heads in disapproval at the ignorance of their audience.
Having worked not only in music but also to a degree in entertainment I have to say that I find that attitude somewhat wanting and slightly arrogant.
If people want to be grand exponents of great art they should in my view realise two things
1. they need to be at the top of their game in expressive ability on their instrument. I'm using a world class measuring stick when I make this assertion, so in the UK you are talking a handful of musicians, John Taylor, Kenny Wheeler (Canadian born), Mike Walker, Django Bates and a few others
2. if they are not at the top of said game they can expect to be of very little entertainment value to all but a very tiny proportion of music listeners (worldwide, let alone in the UK) and should IMO be grateful for the opportunity to make what is often a phenomenal din in trying to attain the aforementioned top of game position, in public, and sometimes even getting paid not only by venues but very often public funding.
The disdain with which many musicians regard the public view of what they do is staggering to me, talk about biting the hand that feeds you. If you are a top of the industry monster player who can on a whim, lets say, change the history of music then I can see how, like Miles Davis you may develop a slighty larger sense of self than is warranted for most...
I think I make myself clear.
I'm trying to say that musicians of this ilk often (particularly in the UK) lack humility and positively alienate audiences by playing unutterable tripe in some vain effort to be the next Michael Brecker, Herbie Hancock, Miles, Dave Holland etc etc

I play and have played Jazz that is to many like some of the material I have mentioned above, I don't expect anything other than my own enjoyment from doing the projects I have been involved in. Pay and audience enjoyment are a bonus for which I humbly strive .

As musicians if we don't recognise the entertainment element in our output then we condemn ourselves to audiences of four blokes and a whippet who are deaf and don't mind the music 'cos the beers cheap.

As for the "poorly skilled" whilst I don't condemn you for being depressed as you point out, I don't think it's fair to begrudge an individuals success (financial or otherwise) becasue they provide large numbers of people with something they enjoy. IMO that is no less worthy.
I could go into the social merits of music, and how marketing makes people [i]think[/i] they like stuff etc but whilst that, as an argument has merit, I feel it will only weigh heavily on the conversation.
Jake

Edited August 1, 2008 by jakesbass

[OutToPlayJazz]

On a lighter note...

Is this the five minute argument or the full half hour?

Isn't it time this topic was put to bed? Just accept that some of us find these virtuoso players' performances inspiring & some don't. Whatever your taste, just accept that we're all different and all our opinions (no matter how diverse) should be accepted as valid.

Peace.

Rich.

[Oscar South]

Why? This is an entertaining debate. I don't get this attitude some people have that everyone should always agree on everything, disagreeing is so much more interesting and you can learn so much more from it.

[OutToPlayJazz]

Well, to put it another way, I'd like to know how many of you who have been arguing out this thread actually know what you are talking about? How many of you actually earn your living as professional musicians or music teachers (or both!)?

I only ask as some of you really have been talking utter bollocks AT eachother

Getting along is sooo much nicer than all this conflict.

*Wanders off muttering, "Feels like the bloody Middle East in here..."*

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='253058' date='Aug 2 2008, 12:00 AM']As for the "poorly skilled" whilst I don't condemn you for being depressed as you point out, I don't think it's fair to begrudge an individuals success (financial or otherwise) becasue they provide large numbers of people with something they enjoy. IMO that is no less worthy.[/quote]

++
Cf. Life of young George Benson, saviour of jazz guitar, heir to Wes Montgomery, jazz snob par excellence, plays rings around everyone young guns included, hated Hendrix
grew up, sang pop songs, made a lot of money (but could have flopped big time), enner-tained millions, most of whom would not have heard him play, shows the world what chops he has at the same time, they are astounded but prefer the pop songs.

Dennis Budimir, Tommy Tedesco, Hal Blaine et al were monster jazz players who played four to the floor rhythm for millions of pop songs....it's music people, it's enner-tainment, it's not even sports enner-taintment let alone competitive skill sports

Post Beatles everyone claims musical integrity - to be a composer of artistic merit, or musician of accomplished merit. Once we had a guitarist in a funk band who said he 'wrote' a song. It was a 2 chord vamp without a melody. He was a guitar teacher, whose hero was Steve Vai. I've come across this more than once. I'd rather one of the pop idol wannabees whistle me a happy tune. Musical integrity my arse.

[Oscar South]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='253079' date='Aug 2 2008, 12:51 AM']Well, to put it another way, I'd like to know how many of you who have been arguing out this thread actually know what you are talking about? How many of you actually earn your living as professional musicians or music teachers (or both!)?

I only ask as some of you really have been talking utter bollocks AT eachother

Getting along is sooo much nicer than all this conflict.

*Wanders off muttering, "Feels like the bloody Middle East in here..."*[/quote]


Define 'what we're talking about' please. I can wager that every single one of us knows what we're talking about infinite times better than you do, because we're talking about our own opinions! If its your opinion that we're talking utter bollocks, then I disagree.. I say that you're wrong. Can you prove me wrong on that statement.

Read this page of the thread in regards to the first half of your post.

And I'd rather an interesting debate than an other arse-slapping thread of 'I agree's and '+1's that outstays its welcome because everyone keeps bumping it with the two previous replies.

In fact I think the best thing about this forum is that everyone for the most part can disagree while still staying civil, thats a rare thing on an internet forum.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Oscar South

[mcgraham]

Jake, it was a point I've mentioned briefly in another thread

I completely agree with your points in your post. Particularly the 'musos' attitude of shaking their head at the audience as being arrogant and slightly wanting. I couldn't agree more. It [i]is[/i] biting the hand that feeds you. It is arrogant and cocky to assign one's failures as a musician/artist to the 'publics' inability to recognise one's self-proclaimed talent. I think a number of musicians fall prey to that attitude, that they are 'too good' for the public and they're not appreciated because of it.

Let me draw a parallel to explain where I was coming from with the comment you've quoted: In the world of non-music work (office work, construction, you name it), it seems reasonable/logical to assume that the most skilled workers/practitioners would get the most work and most pay for their work, in proportion to their skill level. However, my business-minded Uncle pointed out that this is somewhat [i]irrelevant[/i], as it (more or less) always comes down to what people are willing to pay for a service. If they are [i]happy[/i] with that service, why pay more for something they don't want/need/desire etc. I don't think the situation [i]per se[/i] is depressing, I happen to like a lot of music put out there by musicians who I objectively consider to be mediocre; I am simply acknowledging that in the real world, the most skilled don't necessarily get recognition (or pay!) in proportion to their skill level and devotion to their art. And that strikes me as quite sad

Oh, and I definitely don't begrudge people success, props to them for making it! I certainly haven't done so. It's the abuse of fame and fortune that I'm not so keen on, i.e. when lack of integrity shines through. But that's a different kettle of fish.

Mark

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='253088' date='Aug 2 2008, 01:03 AM']Define 'what we're talking about' please. I can wager that every single one of us knows what we're talking about infinite times better than you do, because we're talking about our own opinions! If its your opinion that we're talking utter bollocks, then I disagree.. I say that you're wrong. Can you prove me wrong on that statement.

Read this page of the thread in regards to the first half of your post.

And I'd rather an interesting debate than an other arse-slapping thread of 'I agree's and '+1's that outstays its welcome because everyone keeps bumping it with the two previous replies.

In fact I think the best thing about this forum is that everyone for the most part can disagree while still staying civil, thats a rare thing on an internet forum.[/quote]

Hi Oscar, I wasn't talking about this page in particular It just seemed to me that a lot of people on the past pages of this thread were just 'spouting' at eachother as opposed to listening to eachother and being constructive. As you correctly pointed out, page 7 makes generally constructive & interesting reading.

I will say that from a professional musician's point of view, the I find the whole X-Factor culture quite depressing. In a way it feeds into a lot of playing culture as well. Obviously, as others have said, you can't begrudge people's success (no matter what their level of ability), but I do feel it all leads to an attitude that given the right chance, celebrity will come knocking. A feeling of instant gratification (almost like the video game culture), if you like. It detracts from the hard work that previously mentioned virtuoso performers have to put in.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='253093' date='Aug 2 2008, 01:10 AM']Jake, it was a point I've mentioned briefly in another thread [/quote]

Nicely developed points Mark

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='253079' date='Aug 2 2008, 12:51 AM']Well, to put it another way, I'd like to know how many of you who have been arguing out this thread actually know what you are talking about? How many of you actually earn your living as professional musicians or music teachers (or both!)?[/quote]

Definitely know what I'm talking about.
Pro for 20 yrs and teacher for nearly as much.

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='253079' date='Aug 2 2008, 12:51 AM']I only ask as some of you really have been talking utter bollocks AT eachother

Getting along is sooo much nicer than all this conflict.

*Wanders off muttering, "Feels like the bloody Middle East in here..."*[/quote]

I, personally will tolerate a bit of trash talking and ill educated point scoring for three reasons.
1. The debate is being had (so is worth some of the crap)
2. Those that make the poor points etc might actually absorb a little reason by influence of those that speak moderately and with sense. (I do include myself in that)
3. Disagreement can be a very healthy route to finding about stuff you didn't already know.

Edited August 2, 2008 by jakesbass

[mcgraham]

[quote]Nicely developed points Mark[/quote]

Why thank you

BTW, thank you for sharing your experiences Jake. I, for one, really like hearing experiences garnered by someone who actually makes a living out of performing and teaching music, especially someone who has done this in several genres, scenes and even different countries. My proverbial hat goes off to you my friend!

Mark

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='253157' date='Aug 2 2008, 09:50 AM']Why thank you [/quote]
You're welcome!

[quote name='mcgraham' post='253157' date='Aug 2 2008, 09:50 AM']BTW, thank you for sharing your experiences Jake. I, for one, really like hearing experiences garnered by someone who actually makes a living out of performing and teaching music, especially someone who has done this in several genres, scenes and even different countries. My proverbial hat goes off to you my friend!

Mark[/quote]
I am a musical whore no doubt.

[Oscar South]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='253105' date='Aug 2 2008, 01:34 AM']Hi Oscar, I wasn't talking about this page in particular It just seemed to me that a lot of people on the past pages of this thread were just 'spouting' at eachother as opposed to listening to eachother and being constructive. As you correctly pointed out, page 7 makes generally constructive & interesting reading.[/quote]

Ah ok, no problem, your post just tickled me a bit because it seemed to be backtracking to an earlier point of the thread which we'd gotten past (to quote myself earlier in the thread: "anyone can have an opinion and voice it about anyone, theres no pre-requisite requirement to meet")

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='253105' date='Aug 2 2008, 01:34 AM']I will say that from a professional musician's point of view, the I find the whole X-Factor culture quite depressing. In a way it feeds into a lot of playing culture as well. Obviously, as others have said, you can't begrudge people's success (no matter what their level of ability), but I do feel it all leads to an attitude that given the right chance, celebrity will come knocking. A feeling of instant gratification (almost like the video game culture), if you like. It detracts from the hard work that previously mentioned virtuoso performers have to put in.[/quote]

I agree about this, I hate the 'bass celebrity' culture more than any too as its so caught up in gimmickry (technical and otherwise). I have a lot of respect for dedicated solo artists such as Jean Baudin and Michael Manring however, who persevere through the struggle of earning their living in probably one of the the hardest musical avenues (solo bass) and the whole while never sacrificing music integrity for cheap tricks.

I see Manring as the true spiritual successor to Jaco, aside from being tutored by him which is merely coincidental to my point hes one of the only bassists who has really taken the instrument off on a completely different tangent and really shown people what can be done in ways they wouldn't have thought of. His impact has been less obvious due to a bit of a saturation of 'icon bassists' but in the same way that Jaco's work made people stop and think "Wow, you can really do a lot more with this instrument that I first thought!" Manring as expanded the boundaries of what people consider possible (or viable) for modern bass playing and also modern technology.

[WalMan]

I did read this thread when it first started and came here today for a comment on the inflammatory JB headline on the front of this months BGM. It may have been mentioned already but looking at the last page I have not bothered going back to check as it looks as though it has all got a bit heated.

So to the headline. "Five string basses won't make you a better player!" Eeeeeeeeerm did anyone think they might, or just that they are another tool in the box?

I have only got a five string in the last year after managing quite fine for over 30 with 4 strings. Did I get a 5 because I thought it would make me a better player? Funnily enough, no. I got it for the ability to get that little bit lower when needed, NOT all the time.


Having read the article - or at least the bit that covers 5's - to be fair to JB he does not actually say what the cover suggests, at least not in that uncompromising fashion (which one might have expected) and what he does say is not so unreasonable and perfectly logical.

So just journalistic / sub editor licence rather than a comment by JB, and if I have managed to stoke the fire I apologise here.

Have to go out now so will comment further haveing read the article in full

[Alun]

Yeah, the headline seems a bit "tabloid" to me really, and is feeding off the sort of reaction it would probably cause. His actual comments make total sense in light of the "more is better" syndrome that some musicians suffer from ( that is NOT an attack on ERBs, just a comment on players who feel that having more strings, speakers, watts, etc will make them better).

Jeff's comments are, IMO, often designed to provoke comversation and thought ( which they obviously do!) but if you watch his most recent Players School DVD, you'll see that he actual backs up and explains some of his bold statements.

I was amazed when he performed at Bassday 07 and came across as a very humorous and friendly person when he had to ad lib his way through the power cut. From his reputation, I expected him to storm off but he stayed and chatted until the problem was fixed.

Cheers
Alun

[Jase]

For anybody interested there's more of the Berlin/Bailey debate here: [url="http://www.%20bassplayer.%20tv/"]http://www.bassplayer. tv/[/url]