Thumb position on Double Bass - which part of thumb ?

[Paul Galbraith]

Hi Everyone - I've been a lurker on here for a while... but not very active as a poster

I'm an accomplished bassist - studied jazz at degree level & very technique / posture conscious due to being a repetitive strain injury sufferer.

I've been self-teaching myself on double bass for past few years, using correct pizz. technique (side of fingers) & have predominantly used 1-2-4 / upright fingering. I can now control the instrument quite well & feel comfortable on it using 'double bass technique' - not 'electric bass technique'.

Recently I've been brave enough to start venturing into Thumb position - ouch it hurts !!

I'm experimenting with different parts of my Thumb & have studied lot's of video's / pictures, but not sure which it the 'correct' part to use as they don't go into enough detail... so I've attached 2x pictures where I've drawn the various positions on my thumb & am wanting feedback from the double bass players on this forum.

On the attached thread pictures (you can click them to enlarge) :
* I've numbered the different parts I've been experimenting with 1-4.
* The RED pen is the bone in my thumb (the bit you use for traditional slapping on electric bass where you 'bounce' your thumb). I'll call this the slap bone.
* Position No.3 is pushing the 'slap bone' into the string at the angle your hand naturally comes into contact with the string.
* Position No. 2 is just the side of the thumb, halfway between the slap bone & the bottom of your thumb nail.

QUERIES - Based on my photographs :
(1) Which is the correct part of the thumb to use according to classical bass technique ?
(2) Are there variations on the classical bass technique ? i.e. more than 1 method ?
(3) Which is your personal preferred method to us. Please mention if you guys use a combination i.e. it get's too painful with one position, so you change to another to provide relief.

Look forward to the feedback & thanks in advance

Edited August 3, 2014 by Paul Galbraith

[philparker]

I'm not experienced enough to give the definitive answer, but I use a mixture of 2 & 3 on your photos.

[geoffbassist]

Hey Paul, I hope you're well mate and it's good to see you on here! I would go for 2...or possibly between 2 and 3. I would also try to keep your wrist straight which may mean raising your elbow to let the arm weight go straight into the thumb. Good luck mate, cheers Geoff

[TheG]

Hi Paul firstly I am a newbie at thumb position. Im at the stage where I can play up there and have been through the pain barrier until it is now more comfortable. So there may be people better qualified than me to say where BUT…..

I started playing with the string going under the thumb joint (your red bit). That was the least amount of pain which was good but then I saw a John Patiticci video and he says he used to play there as well but now plays with the string going under where the thumb nail meets the flesh (your number 1). This was the most painful part for me but I persevered and a few weeks later it became much easier.

Just trying it out now (and everyones hands may be different) but when I play with the string going under my thumb joint (your red bit) my first finger a semitone away feels unstable and my finger wants to curl in and collapse. If the string goes under where my nail meets flesh (your number 1) then everything feels more stable and in control. It could be however, that this is happening because I am more used to the second position though.

Anyway that is my own personal experience of it. I don't play classical either so Im not sure what the official line is. Hope that helps.

[fatgoogle]

I think I play on about No.3. This will of course be different depending on the shape of your hand and length of fingers and thumb. You want a straight line up your fingers and that joint. Remember to not let your fingers bend or scrunch up. Possibly get a lesson or two.

[zero9]

Whatever works and is comfortable. I ended up playing thumb position without thinking about it. My style works best between position 1 and 2.

[kedo]

Thumb (at position 1 on your photo) behind second finger.

[EssentialTension]

I just don't go there; it hurts too much and I'm usually out of tune.

[artisan]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1408480382' post='2530674']
I just don't go there; it hurts too much and I'm usually out of tune.
[/quote]
me too
Anywat that there lower bit is there just purely for slapping isn't it ?

Edited August 22, 2014 by artisan

[fatgoogle]

I would say it is in-fact easier to play in thumb position. As long as you take your time. The intervals are smaller and because it's a higher pitch its easier to adjust your intonation in thumb position.

As far as I'm aware Rabbath starts all his students in thumb position when teaching a beginner. Thumb position is nothing to be scared, just something different with a slightly different approach.

[kedo]

I was taught 50 years ago to keep my thumb behind my second finger. It is supposed to be important, as when you venture up the board, when your thumb hits the heel on a there-quarter bass, your second finger hits B on the E string, and your ready to go. I remember when learning, that it felt awkward, but couldn't play any other way now. It just feels natural.

However, I have seen many really effective and credible contemporary 'slap' players, who use a left-handed 'fist' which would cause my bass teacher to turn in his grave. He used to call it a 'bunch of bananas' and say that you could never be a player if you didn't observe proper technique. But that was orchestral stuff, and I suppose it's just the evolution of a new exiting and effective technique. I wish I could do it!

I've come to the conclusion that to play proper 'slap', although there may be limitations on fast passages, it may not be possible to use traditional technique (i.e. finger separation with a tone between 1 and 3, 2 and 4 and a semi-tone between 2 and 3 with the thumb behind the second finger). I would be interested to learn more about this. I would find it difficult to abandon my lifelong left-hand, but would really like to learn slap. Any advice.

[Paul Galbraith]

Geoff - good to see you here Well done on [color=#A4A4A4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3][url="http://www.discoverdoublebass.com/"]DiscoverDoubleBass.com[/url][/size][/font][/color] , it's been a catalyst for me the last few months and am now spending most of my time on upright - hardly touching electric bass at the moment, you've put me off... lol

Kedo - I think you might be thinking about left hand note fretting, with thumb behind fingers. The thumb position I am referring to is actually using your thumb to press the notes down and play in the higher position on a double bass, like in the photo of Scott LaFaro which is the profile picture for [b]fatgoogle[/b] on this thread. Not for use on the electric bass (unless your Steve Bailey or Brian Bromberg !). So your fretting hand thumb actually becomes an extra fretting digit & is on the fingerboard itself. None of your fingers would go 'behind' your thumb in this method or behind the neck.

Thought I would share my progression and feedback on here :

1. I wanted a thumb callus fast - so ended up rubbing my thumb against a credit card / block of wood / steering wheel of my van, using the part of the thumb that would press down the string. Pushing as hard as possible and doing a vibrato type movement. After painful blisters and getting through to bare flesh a few times I now have a strong callus to work with. Hurt like hell and was far more aggressive that what would be required. If you can handle the pain, it's a good way to toughen the skin to make the thumb 'useable'.

2. When practising this on the instrument itself - I decided to pick all notes pizzicato with the 3rd finger of my picking hand to get an upright callus on there (as I work on 3 finger picking in both 1,2,3 etc.. and 3,2,1 etc.. directions). Seems a good way to practise the less common techniques two hands at the same time by picking with the 3rd finger. Haven't got very good strings for bowing at the moment - hence pizz.

3. Experimented with positions 1-3 in my photo above and found pushing the 'slap bone' (red bit in my photo) towards the string helps tone definition and stability more, also assists with channelling arm weight into the string. Have settled on 2-3 as my thumb target area.

4. Having a slight bend in the 1st thumb knuckle increases the surface area of the thumb in contact with the string - which assist with ergonomics (i.e. less pressure / effort, but same result).

5. In regards what Geoff mentioned about "keep your wrist straight which may mean raising your elbow to let the arm weight go straight into the thumb." That makes a HUGE difference - I try to keep wrists straight as much as possible; however pushing elbow / arm forward has made a huge difference and if I wasn't pushing my elbow / arm far enough forward I'd get a warning pain.

6. I am now taking using the thumb back as far back as the fifth on a string (so low note D on the G string).

7. Forgot to mention I used rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) only when there were no bare wounds to dry the skin out prior to working on the thumb - the intent was to 'damage' the skin more while working on the thumb so it toughens up quicker by removing the natural skin oils with the alcohol. This worked great.

8. Have to be very cautious about your back when practising this - I noticed some back pain from hunching over the instrument too much while studying my thumb closely. Practising sitting down and standing up helps.

9. I used this exercise [url="http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2013/11/04/the-bloody-thumb-exercise-for-thumb-position-playing/"]http://www.notreble....sition-playing/[/url] - but changed it to include playing scales and arpeggios which helps hear intonation and musicality.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Paul Galbraith