Zoom R16 - recording a band with built-in mics - doable ?

[barkin]

Hi y'all,

After a bit of advice re: recording rehearsals - 3 piece (drums, guitar, bass) rock/pop stuff, not stupid loud, but not background music either.

I was all set to get something along the lines of a Zoom H1 or H2 for this a while ago. Then the band folded, and a Zoom R16 showed up, so I bought it. Dead pleased with it - hours of fun while I wasn't with a band - but now I'm back in a band and looking to record our rehearsals, and wondering if it's feasible to use the R16 onboard condenser mics ?

Ultimately I guess I'll take it along and give it a go - nothing ventured, and all that - but as we have to pay for our rehearsal space and time, I'm really after any tips re: placement of the unit, getting acceptable levels etc.

Or is it a non-starter ?

Cheers...

[bartelby]

My band use a R24 to record jam/writing sessions.
The internal mics are good enough to record rough ideas. Obviously it's not going to give you studio quality recordings.

We place it about 12' from the bass and guitar cabs (the 3 form a, more or less, equilateral triangle). For levels we just make sure nothing's in the red for too long.

We've also used it to record better quality demos. Bass DI'd from Zoom B3, 3 mics for drums, one for guitar and one for vocals. There was some spill across the drum and guitar mics, but that was minimised with orientation of gear and screens.

[Happy Jack]

The Zoom R16 uses the same capsules as the H2. You can use the on-board mics to record anything that you'd use an H2 for, and with exactly the same quality - no better, no worse.

[lefrash]

I love the R16. I've owned 2 over the years and recordede numerous gigs and rehearsals. I used to use the built in compressors plus any direct outs that are available.

I recorded a gig with 3 mono direct outs (ont bass multi FX output, one guitar multi FX output and the PA. The rest were used for kick drum and a few (randomly placed) overhead mics. Abosolutely great fun and can be set up within minutes for a proper decent recording.

I'll probably get another one at some point.

[barkin]

[quote name='bartelby' timestamp='1407160110' post='2517871']
My band use a R24 to record jam/writing sessions.
The internal mics are good enough to record rough ideas. Obviously it's not going to give you studio quality recordings.

We place it about 12' from the bass and guitar cabs (the 3 form a, more or less, equilateral triangle). For levels we just make sure nothing's in the red for too long.
[/quote]

Great, thanks. I'll try something like that first, and take it from there. Do you use the AGC, limiters etc ?

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1407162009' post='2517893']
The Zoom R16 uses the same capsules as the H2. You can use the on-board mics to record anything that you'd use an H2 for, and with exactly the same quality - no better, no worse.
[/quote]

Aha! That's very useful to know. I didn't really find much in my initial searching for anything specific to the R16. Lots of diiscusion on the H2 though, so I'll look into those some more.

[quote name='lefrash' timestamp='1407182782' post='2518186']
I love the R16. I've owned 2 over the years and recordede numerous gigs and rehearsals. I used to use the built in compressors plus any direct outs that are available.

I recorded a gig with 3 mono direct outs (ont bass multi FX output, one guitar multi FX output and the PA. The rest were used for kick drum and a few (randomly placed) overhead mics. Abosolutely great fun and can be set up within minutes for a proper decent recording.

I'll probably get another one at some point.
[/quote]

Hmm...I could go direct into the R16 for vox and my B3, and guitars FX. Would that setup, with the onboard mics for drums, be better than just using the onboards for everything, or would it sound kinda wierd d'ya think?

Thanks folks...total noob at this - your input's much appreciated.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='barkin' timestamp='1407186077' post='2518234']...Hmm...I could go direct into the R16 for vox and my B3, and guitars FX. Would that setup, with the onboard mics for drums, be better than just using the onboards for everything, or would it sound kinda wierd d'ya think?...[/quote]

No, it won't sound 'kinda weird', (depending, of course, on how/what you play... [size=4] [/size][size=4] ); it will enable you to place the unit at optimum for the drums and still capture the other elements. You'll have better control at playback of any particular detail of the separate tracks, by muting the others. You'll have to experiment for the drum position; it may be useful to record even from behind the kit, picking up what the drummer hears (an often neglected part of the process...). You'll have to build in a little rehearsal time for doing a couple of experimental 'takes' but, once you've found the 'sweet spot', it's all good. Can we get to hear the results, please, and an account of how you got them, do you think..? [/size]

[51m0n]

They will capture the room reasonably well

A really superb upgrade is a pair of Line Audio CM3 condensors for a second stereo pair.

Exceptional value for money giving sound quality on a par with Schoeps and DPA....

[Matt P]

We've used our R16 to record our 3 piece, we used as many line-ins and mic's as we could then used the onboards to capture the rest of the drums and a bit of the room, the results were pretty good but we had too much overspill from the guitar, if you can di the guitar and bass and then run the vocals straight in then you should be able to get some good results.

Matt

[barkin]

Thanks folks - appreciated.

On a wee break at the moment, while guitar's on his hols. I'll experiment with just the onboards for starters when we reconvene, and let ya know how it goes.

[lefrash]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1407187729' post='2518269']
No, it won't sound 'kinda weird', (depending, of course, on how/what you play... [size=4] ); it will enable you to place the unit at optimum for the drums and still capture the other elements. You'll have better control at playback of any particular detail of the separate tracks, by muting the others. You'll have to experiment for the drum position; it may be useful to record even from behind the kit, picking up what the drummer hears (an often neglected part of the process...). You'll have to build in a little rehearsal time for doing a couple of experimental 'takes' but, once you've found the 'sweet spot', it's all good. Can we get to hear the results, please, and an account of how you got them, do you think..? [/size]
[/quote]



Exactly how I found it. Although when i done it i got the files onto Reaper and added FX and EQ like that. I would be tempted though to atleast stick a mic onto the kick drum or else that will get a bit lost. Someone in your band must have a cheapo one and aspare lead kicking about.



I love zoom r16's! Absolutely amazing things. Wish i still had one! haha

[Sean]

I recorded our rehearsal this week with my recently acquired R16 (£133 on eBay) and it went well. Mics on snare and kick, bass DI from MXR M80, singer with second mic because we don't have a splitter, guitar through DI box. And the stereo pair recording the room. The guitar DI failed because it's broken so there's none of that in the mix other than what was being picked up from the room.

Next time we'll have a mic splitter and the guitar will work.

I enhanced the recordings and did a bit of a mix before sharing on SoundCloud, this convinced the guys in the band that it's worth the extra set up time to get better recordings. I was able to EQ and compress the drums, add a model to the bass, sort the vocals and get the levels right. Previously we used the stereo pair on a very old Zoom H4 but this is the way forward.

Interestingly if you pan the stereo track back and forth, you can hear the difference between the right and left mics because of the distance between them (12" or so) whereas you don't get this with the H4 because the mics are arranged more closely.

[barkin]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1411898004' post='2563564']
I recorded our rehearsal this week with my recently acquired R16 (£133 on eBay) and it went well. Mics on snare and kick, bass DI from MXR M80, singer with second mic because we don't have a splitter, guitar through DI box. And the stereo pair recording the room.
[/quote]

I'm going to try something like this in the near future. I used just the onboard mics a couple of weeks ago, but the result wasn't very impressive I'm afraid. Loads of cymbals, snare and guitar, and not much of anything else.

Could have perhaps got something better had I experimented with location of the unit and levels, but we were in a small (long, narrow) room and, as I mentioned before, we pay for the space/time and don't get the chance to get together as much as we'd like.
Consequently it was a bit of a "finger in the air", set the R16 recording, and get on with then fun stuff - playing.

More soon...

[steve-bbb]

do-able but expect the result to avry depending upon the room, placement, dampening, ambient noise etc etc

our band have one and our guitarists uses it to record rehearsals and gigs - you really need to experiment with it to get anything vaguely reasonable from the built in mics

personally speaking having seen how they record i would put the funds towards an LED light bar or something

[barkin]

Funds? What are these "funds" you speak of...?

[Sean]

Here's a recording from last night, it's a writing session and improvised so a bit sketchy http://soundcloud.com/belowtheghost/toxic-pixie-dust-unfinished/s-md7zN

This is:

sh*tty Rehearsal room Vocal mics on snare and kick, bass DI, guitar DI, stereo pair on R16 mounted close to the kit.

Imported the files into Logic Pro X

Snare and kick EQ'd and compressed loads, guitar compressed and EQ'd, Bass which was recorded through an MXR M80 DI had a 400+ model put on it with a load of drive. Room mics were EQ'd a bit.

[Sean]

Beware!

If you are running the R16 off a power supply and there is a power cut, you will lose the files since the last save. I lost about two hours last night. The files are there but there's nothing recorded. When you press STOP you get a progress bar and it writes the recorded stuff to the file, if the power fails you lose it all.

I kind of understand. I'm going to see if loading batteries in the back stops this.

[barkin]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1412116855' post='2565941']
Here's a recording from last night, it's a writing session and improvised so a bit sketchy [url="http://soundcloud.com/belowtheghost/toxic-pixie-dust-unfinished/s-md7zN"]http://soundcloud.co...inished/s-md7zN[/url]

This is:

sh*tty Rehearsal room Vocal mics on snare and kick, bass DI, guitar DI, stereo pair on R16 mounted close to the kit.
[/quote]

Thanks for posting that. If I can get anything near, I'll be a happy bunny.

A bit more work to do, but at least I now know that what I want is definitely doable.

Cheers.

[51m0n]

This is a recording of my band in reheasal:-

https://soundcloud.com/mistersuperjuice/2014-10-05-track-08-banacek-rehearsal

Recorded with an H4n and a pair of Line Audio CM3 mics in the room.

The H4n is over the drum kit and is only about 25% of what you hear, I've also closed down its stereo width (ie made it more mono) in post to keep everything centralised around it, basically I dont need super wide drums if it means the bass is pushed wide too, and this alleviates alot of that. Note that the bottom end of the kit is actually picked up by the CM3s no the H4n, they are such amazing little mics!

The CM3s are on a stereo bar about 6ft from the drums faciung so that the LH mic faces the guitar amp, the RH mic faces the PA and the horns are front and center to it. The bass amp is to the rhs of the stereo bar and behind it, maybe 8ft away.

The hardest thing is getting levels (percussion too quiet in this I think, need more in the PA to get a better level), but then this isnt a 'real' recording, its just a rehearsal, so some level issues are to be expected. However I'm particularly pleased with how this one came out, the playing is pretty good too IMO, couple of ropey notes from the horns, but nothing to get too worried about for a rehearsal tape.

With an R16 I would be able to put a mic over each component of the percussion (bongos/congas, woodblocks/cowbells, hand cymbals) to lift them a little as a part of mixdown/post, but the fun is trying to get it ight in the room, because once you've got that you are better equipped to do the same thing live IMO.

I've heard worse demos!

[barkin]

I've got a lot of learning to do...

[Dad3353]

[quote name='barkin' timestamp='1413917017' post='2583624']
I've got a lot of learning to do...
[/quote]

Nah; a mere lifetime's worth, that's all (same as all of us..!). [size=4] [/size]

[51m0n]

Not so much, I think people are confused by what you should be looking to achieve when recording a rehearsal (in my honestly quite humble opinion about this).

So, for a rehearsal I want to spend my time worrying about the sounds the band are making, are we all on the same page with structures, are we playing as a unit, is everyone listening. These are the things that really matter about rehearsing. The recording is just documentation for this.

So in order to be able to concentrate on all of that I dont want to waste any time on the documentation tech (the recording), if I cant set it up in literally less than five minutes, its too complex, by far.

The next thing is, is your rehearsal space actually big enough to rehearse in, [i]and document that reheasal. [/i]Most spaces are too small for this, everyine should have eyeline on everyone, and the main mic(s) should be somewhere in the circle of the performers.

This is easy to do, and over time you can learn to move the main mic(s) to get them closer to the quieter sections of the band.

Include the PA as a part of the band, anything too quiet (the percussion in my case) needs micing up for everyone to be able to hear it, so do that, so that it also gets heard in the recording, the keys only come out of the PA. So level setting in the room is of the utmost importance to getting a good rehearsal, and a good recording.

Once you have those levels, then there is typically very few instruments that need another mic, in my case the drums (and currently the percussion but I'm working on that).

Really recording a rehearsal is like a 1950's recording, get in a good sounding room, get the levels righ tbetween the people in the room, experiment over a few tries with the mic placement, then record. Easy.

On Sunday, in contrast, we tracked the drums for the album. 12 hours we spent (not including breaks) to get down about 6 12 to 15 minute long tracks. Before we started recording we loaded in, tuned the kit, set up the kit and the recording kit, set up some isolation for other performers (we dont do click tracks) and their mics. That set up in entirety was 4 hours, the playing was done in 8 hours.

Here are a few photos of the day:-

[url="https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.847833075250516.1073741831.588604131173413&type=3"]https://www.facebook...31173413&type=3[/url]

I'm left with 3 hours of takes to pore over, edit and boil down in to drum tracks ready for overdubbing final bass, guitar, keys, percussion, horns that will need to be done.

This is clearly a long term project with a different goal, but, its being done in the same room we rehearse in, because we rehearse in a really great sounding room.....

Edited October 22, 2014 by 51m0n