Noob Questions - Fretless 5-String

[Nomad]

I'm mostly a noob when it comes to bass, but experienced with 6-string guitar. I just got a Yamaha TRB5IIF fretless and have a few questions. It's a used bass (made in Japan, probably at least 10 years old). I like it, but I'm not married to it in it's present form - no qualms about doing some rework to improve/remedy things if needed.

It has a rosewood board which appears to be uncoated (but I could be wrong - the finish on the board isn't shiny, but is very smooth). It came with round wound strings and there is some marking on the board under the thicker strings (lateral scoring). It's quite visible, but doesn't seem to be particularly deep (hard to feel when I run a fingernail down the board). Are these likely to be a problem? The bass seems to play okay, and sounds fine to my inexperienced ear. Should I consider taking some fine grit sandpaper and wire wool to the board to remove the marks/scores? (Worked wood, and worked on guitars before, so I have no problem tackling this sort of thing.) Or filling in some way?

Am I right in thinking that the mwah sound is partly in the fingers, and partly in the action? In other words, the neck relief has to be just right to get a sort of "almost buzz" along its whole length. (When I got it, the sound was clear over most of the neck, and a couple of strings were a bit too buzzy above the octave. I raised those, and tightened the truss rod a quarter turn. Mwah seemed a bit easier after an hour or so, so I'll see how it plays later this evening.)

What about strings? I pulled the frets from a cheapo Strat copy some time ago and fitted flatwounds. It's very slinky and there is some appeal for having a similar feel on the bass. Do flatwounds cut it for the mwah thing? How about these half flat things? (Bumpy, but not as bumpy as round-wounds?)

Fingerboard coatings. I've seen some stuff about using something to give a hard coating to the fingerboard, like marine epoxy. Worth doing? If so, how is it applied? I presume the stuff is fairly fluid rather than viscous, so I'm guessing that brushing is okay. If I were to remove the scoring mentioned above, could I built up epoxy (or whatever) into the scoring to fill that way, then level the surface back before doing the coating, proper?

[HowieBass]

If you can't feel the marked areas under the strings then it's probably not worth levelling the fingerboard, but if you're determined to do it then you'd need a radiused sanding block with a variety of different size grit papers and a straight edge. You still get 'mwah' with flatwounds but they will obviously sound different to rounds on a fretless. Some of the sound with a fretless comes from applying vibrato but then some of the sound comes from sliding stops and some is inherent in the string vibrating against the fingerboard. You can use something like linseed oil on a fingerboard which will harden a little after repeated applications. If you want a brighter tone then applying an epoxy coating will do this but it's something you'd need to do in stages, applying coats and then sanding level between coats - I think Jaco used something like 7 coats on his famous Jazz bass... maybe not something to attempt if you're not sure of what to do.

[SMV]

I'll dive in on the flat/roundwound question - I usually find flats on a fretless seriously lacking for 'mwah' factor (but what I hear as mwah may not be the same as you or others!), but yes they feel slinky and quite nice under the fingers. Definitely more of a thumpy upright vibe/tone with flats. Half rounds (or ground-wounds, are they called sometimes? could be making that up...) may well be the answer you're looking for, having a but more mwah but definitely smoother to the touch.

[SMV]

Also, I defretted my jazz bass and applied 7 layers of interior grade wood varnish to the fretboard, knowing nothing about woodworking(!) and play using steel roundwounds - the fingerboard is holding up nicely, is all I know...! Took about 6 months for marks to become visible on the board - still sounds awesome and plays great after 2.5 years...

[BassBus]

There are different densities of Rosewood so the softer ones will mark more easily. Some have found little or no problems with rounds on Rosewood. Coatings can help but that might change the sound of the bass. Some have used superglue to coat the board. Other than that what has been said above.

Flats, rounds and half rounds all have their plusses and minusses. Flats have a duller tone with lots of thump. Rounds the opposite. On a wooden board they have a sharp attack and a very bright clear decay to the tone. I don't think you can beat the tone of rounds with the decay part of the tone. However, I don't like that sharp attack they have. Halfwounds/rounds do it for me. They have about three quarters of the brightness of a round string to begin with but with a much softer attack to the tone. They can be a bit sticky to begin with but after a few days they become very slippery. More than a round. They keep a great tone for much longer than a round would, IME.

[ead]

Worth saying too that a lot of the mwah comes from playing with as light a touch as you can manage.

[Nomad]

Thanks all.

Appreciate what's involved with putting epoxy on the board (radius block, multiple coats, etc), and it's not something I plan to just jump in and do. I'm relatively inexperienced with bass, so I want to get used to things as they are before I make any big changes. I think I don't mind if it goes a bit brighter with the epoxy on the basis that removing bright results in less noise than adding it.

I've been gradually tightening the truss rod and the mwah is starting to appear at times but not always. I'll probably leave it as it is for a while now and see what I can do regarding technique.

I'm not sure that I'd want to go as far as a thump from flats if that means less sustain (or less ring in the decay). I would like to get strings that have a bit less friction than the rounds that are on it - sometimes, sliding feels fine, other times, it's draggy and squeaky. The basic tone seems okay, but I don't think my ear is attuned to whatever the finer points of bass tone are. Any thoughts on the coated Elixir round wounds? I use them on 6-string guitar and they're very slinky with noticeably less squeaking. I think it's a toss-up between those and some half-rounds. (Is there a difference between ground and compression wound?) Any suggestions? (I gather the Elixirs only come in 4-string sets and you have to buy a B string separately.)

It's a 35" scale, strings are stopped on the bridge rather than through-body. What scale length of strings should I be looking for?

[uk_lefty]

Hi! For my 18th i got a 5 string fretless and I've never looked back - I'm a lefty it came up for sale at an affordable price and I'd been listening to Pearl Jam's "Ten" over and over for months. For more than not in the last 12 years its been my only bass for any style of music. I have marks on the fingerboard from roundwounds so about 7yrs ago put flats on and have used flats on it ever since. It is a different sound but it preserves the fingerboard better, and it sounds pretty badass too - plus flatwounds last for ages longer than rounds. I've mostly used Ernie Balls long scale because they're the right price and i like their sound on my bass - i'm pretty sure mine's a 35" scale too.
I might venture in to halfs next time it needs re-stringing but i'm in no rush as my string>pickup>amp combination with that bass is sounding just how i want it right now.

[Nomad]

Found this comparison between (nickel) rounds and flats on the same guitar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9PjFor4rgY

I quite like the sound of the flats in that example. Is that fairly representative of the difference in sound?

Edited August 18, 2014 by icastle
Link Fixed.

[UglyDog]

I have nickel rounds on my fretless five and i love them. Not as bright as steels, softer to the touch, but with all the mwah I could want and a familiar feel compared to my fretted basses.
I hate flats anyway so my only other choice would have been half/pressure/ground-wounds. But these now-played-in nickels are perfect for me.

[geoffbyrne]

If your Yammie TRB is a japanese-made one, I'd have thought the fingerboard would have been ebony.

G.

Edited August 10, 2014 by geoffbyrne

[Nomad]

Some photos and specs on the last page of this Yamaha brochure...

http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=usa.yamaha.com&asset_id=35760

Mine is the 5IIF (in translucent blue). According to that, it's rosewood.

[HowieBass]

I haven't noticed any real loss in sustain from using flats over rounds. They sound different (I imagine due to the difference in harmonic content governed by the string vibration modes) but I think the note decays are similar.

[moonbass]

A long time ago I took the frets out of a jazz bass. I carefully filled the slots with laminate, and then built up several coats of epoxy, sanding and levelling in between coats. It sounded good, but intonation was a bugger and the sound was a bit uneven. Took it into a repair shop and they sanded it down and levelled it on a machine while I waited, and voila: brilliant fretless sound.

I really wouldn't get hung up about marks on the finger board; unlikely to affect the sound, and easily sorted with the right tools. Since then I've had a few fretless basses, and I'm afraid to say in my experience a lot of the "mwah" factor comes from buying an expensive bass! (Wal, Pedulla, etc.) I also find I go a bit more effect-heavy with a fretless; they just love compression, chorus and reverb. Then round wounds, light touch and left hand vibrato for the win.

[MOSCOWBASS]

I've used rounds and flats on my fretless and prefer rounds, i think you do get more mwah. Both rounds and flats have a nice distinct sound and have a place in different styles of music. I tried half rounds and they went in the bin....sounded like someone's very old rounds that should have gone in the bin many years before.....only my opinion
I wouldn't worry too much about the slight marks on the fingetboard, ebony does that as well.

Edited August 11, 2014 by MOSCOWBASS

[Nomad]

How did the half rounds feel compared to the rounds and flats? Closer to one than the other?

I did a little experiment yesterday - put a strip of foam under the strings between the bridge and the pickup. The damping wasn't too good on the thicker strings, but worked quite well on the D and G. More like a double bass kind of sound, and I rather liked it. So, I think I'll get a set of flats and see what I think.

D'Addario Chromes seem to be well thought of, so think of getting those. What scale length should I choose for my 35" scale bass? (I guess I need to measure from the back of the bridge to the nearest machine head.)

[hubrad]

[quote name='Nomad' timestamp='1407750218' post='2523498']
How did the half rounds feel compared to the rounds and flats? Closer to one than the other?

What scale length should I choose for my 35" scale bass? (I guess I need to measure from the back of the bridge to the nearest machine head.)
[/quote]
You can't choose the scale length - it's fixed and you already know it's 35". Some brands' 'standard' length strings will do 35" nicely, others not. I know Picato will, as I have a couple of 35" basses and various sets of their strings (round, flat and halfround). If you're thinking of using D'Addario, I'd take your bass along to a shop and check the lengths, as I think they do a Long Scale and Extra Long Scale; probably someone else here uses D'Adds so will know the answer to that. IIRC there's been a couple of threads on this very subject. It's not so much the overall length of the string, but where the string goes thinner up by the head you don't want that bit over the fingerboard.
Going back to the wear lines on your fingerboard, ignore them until they become audible.. eventually the wear becomes deep enough that you get the fretless version of fretbuzz. I used to take mine to a mate who is a superb fixer of such things; eventually he showed me how to do it myself. You don't actually need a radiused block, but the longest straight block you can muster. I use a good straight flat stick of wood with a whole sheet of sandpaper fixed to it, so about 10" length. If you're at all unsure go to a decent repairer - well worth the fee!
Fretless 5-string is just the best! :-)

[Nomad]

Aye - meant which 'length rating' of string to suit my scale length. It seems that I have a choice between 'long' and 'super long'. I'll measure the strings on the bass tonight to see what length they are before the taper starts.

Agreed on being able to use a bit of wood, although it needs care to ensure the radius is maintained. I remember stoning the frets of an acoustic guitar years ago using a big stone longitudinally. I was paranoid about spending too long in one area and working a flat into the fret surfaces. Turned out okay in the end, but I was acutely aware of the potential to make a mess of it. That said, if the neck radius is constant (20" I think), then I'm happy to use a radius block.

I'm glad I went for a 5-string (fretless was a no-brainer). At first it was just for the extra low notes, but I've found it handy being able to go straight across the neck for notes as well as down. Speaking as a guitar player who's dabbled in bass on and off, this 5 string deal just feels right.

[Nomad]

Measured it last night. From the ball end of the B string, 37" is about 1/4" past the nut, and it looks like 38" is about the max before the taper needs to start if I'm to get smaller a diameter around the nearest machine head. (The current rounds on it measure 37.5" to the start of the taper.)

I ordered a set of Picato stainless flats, which apparently are 37" to the start of the taper. (I picked them mainly because they were the cheapest on String Direct. Not a lot of choice when you narrow it down to flats, 5-string, for a given scale.) I reckon I give these a try and then see what direction I want to go in - I'm fairly sure that I'm not keen on the feel of rounds, but half rounds or nylon might be interesting (not averse to getting close to a double bass sound).

Is swapping strings a done thing with bass? On 6-string guitar, you tend to only change them when they're knackered, but bass strings are much thicker and can maybe take a few swaps. They generally seem to offer a bigger range of sounds, so being able to use a different sound for a while has an appeal.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Nomad