Skinnyman Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) We're doing a charity mini-festival at the Bank Holiday with our band and about six others. All proceeds going to Stoke Mandeville as a thank you for the support they gave to the guitarist's wife after she had a spinal stroke about six months ago. The big draw will be the auction (a day with the merc f1 team anyone?) and the local radio celebs but there's also half a dozen bands plus raffle, etc. Anyway, I've volunteered (been roped in) to do the sound on the day for all the bands (with a deputy leaving everything well alone for our set). It's quite a small venue - basically a pub car park and beer garden. Stage is a flat bed trailer (donated) and a gazebo shelter. There's another small gazebo that will be set up in front of the stage, offset slightly to one side and this wil have the mixing desk. We've no money to hire equipment so we're making do with what we have on hand or can borrow. Because this is the first time I've engineered a multi-band event and the first time I've done one outdoors, I'm looking for hints and tips from anyone with experience of these things. My basic assumptions are: 1) it will rain on the day 2) it will blow a gale on the day 3) something will break/blow/up/short out at some point. 4) most bands will over run their allotted time Any more you'd add to that list? We've allowed 15 minutes to change over between acts but there are slack points built in (fund raising appeals etc) which will hopefully allow us to claw some of that back. To be honest, I'm not to bothered about the stage management aspect - that can be someone else's problem. I just want to make sure that the sound is reasonable and everyone can plug in to something. We have two powered mixers available (one as spare but also to act as a slave if needed). I'm planning to use two pairs of passive speakers mounted one above the other at each side of the stage, plus a pair of actives in the beer garden part - the thinking being that I don't need to run everything flat out if I have multiple speakers. I've got a multicore to run from stage to desk and sufficient monitor sends to give individual mixes to the four stage monitors. I'm miking the drums and DI'ing all the instruments. I've checked that I have enough XLR cables and speaker leads, etc and can get power to everywhere I need it. Waterproofing will be with copious numbers of bin liners, cut and taped appropriately and wind proofing is with lots of 20litre containers full of water and tied strategically. Can anyone think of anything I've missed? Or give me any suggestions on the getting a decent outdoor sound. If it sounds okay to me at the desk, is it safe to assume it will be okay elsewhere? And there's going to be a couple of acoustic acts using electro-acoustic guitars - do they present any specific, feedback-related kind of problems? This is one of those situations where if it all goes well, no-one will say a word. If anything goes wrong, it'll all be my fault. In the great words of Charlie Brown, doing a good job will be like wetting my pants in dark trousers. I'll get a warm feeling, but no one will notice..... All advice gratefully received. Edited August 18, 2014 by Skinnyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 [quote name='Skinnyman' timestamp='1408320175' post='2529024'] Can anyone think of anything I've missed? [/quote] The longest mains extension leads you can grab hold of - it'll still be 4" too short but at least you'll have tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameltoe Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Drum kit available to all bands. Nothing is as painful as having to drag one kit off to chuck another up, within 15mins, over and over and over. Actually, it's been more painful when I've played mini-festivals where every band has had to use their own PA because the organizers didn't think ahead and hire one. Those gigs make me want to punch myself in the face! Other than that, lots of low-end reinforcement if you can get it. I'd see if you can borrow some decent subs for the stage and a good one to go with the actives in the beer garden. You will really notice the lack of low-end outdoors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Power? Have you got enough for everything from a decent source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I've run a few small outdoor gigs, including one where it rained for some of the time, and the precautions you've described sound about right. Just make sure all the power feeds are via a suitable RCD. I also like to feed everything from a single socket just to be sure everything is on a single phase, though if there is lighting involved then I run that from a separate socket. This assumes the total power draw is within a single socket limit of course. With extension leads, it's a good idea to ensure they are fully unwound as cable on a reel can heat up. Also, try to run all cables where no one can tread/trip on them. I try to run all power above people onto the stage, e.g. Through trees, but it depends on the location. Sound wise, I've always found outdoors a bit easier, especially in terms of controlling feedback. But I have found a need to mic the drums with overheads to ensure the cymbals don't get lost in the mix, as well as a kick mic and subwoofer of course. If you can position the desk sensibly then I reckon if it sounds good to you then it will all be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 IME 15 minutes change-over isn't enough time unless the drum kit (minus "breakables") and back line cabs are shared between all the bands. Don't let the bands run over their allotted time. Tell them when there's 5 minutes left that they only have time for one more song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinnyman Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1408364523' post='2529382'] IME 15 minutes change-over isn't enough time unless the drum kit (minus "breakables") and back line cabs are shared between all the bands. Don't let the bands run over their allotted time. Tell them when there's 5 minutes left that they only have time for one more song. [/quote] We're using one kit for all the bands along with one bass head and cab as onstage monitor for the bass. Guitars will use their own amps or, ideally, just a pedal board that can DI to the board. Thanks for all the input, guys. The point about an RCD is a good one as is the comment about having a sub or two. Which brings up a question I asked in a different thread. My amp has a stereo sub out which is actually full frequency. I know that if I send that to a sub with a crossover, that will filter out the mids and highs. But do I need another crossover to the mains that will filter out the lows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 If you're talking about half a dozen rock bands, all with pedal-fixated guitarists, then you need to give some thought to sound checks. Hard to get everyone to turn up before the event kicks off, so most bands will be lucky to get a 30-second line check. Similarly, if some acts are going to be amplified acoustic guitars plus double bass then there will be people wanting to use their own DI boxes (Fishman etc.). Are you providing a secure area for bands to leave instruments etc. before/after their own set? What about parking for bands to do their load-in/out? Just random thoughts ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinnyman Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1408366921' post='2529427'] If you're talking about half a dozen rock bands, all with pedal-fixated guitarists, then you need to give some thought to sound checks. Hard to get everyone to turn up before the event kicks off, so most bands will be lucky to get a 30-second line check. Similarly, if some acts are going to be amplified acoustic guitars plus double bass then there will be people wanting to use their own DI boxes (Fishman etc.). Are you providing a secure area for bands to leave instruments etc. before/after their own set? What about parking for bands to do their load-in/out? Just random thoughts ... [/quote] And good ones, too. We were fortunate enough to play a festival earlier this year which was really slick so I've tried to learn from their organisation. Parking and a waiting area/secure storage for instruments is sorted - although I'm trying hard to let others deal with those kind of details as I think I have enough on my plate just sorting out the sound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassvox Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hello All good points above, especially about RCD safety. Make sure you don't overload the mains and make sure that they are properly earthed. Try and come off separate circuits on the fuseboard (consumer unit), say one for PA and one for backline and make sure no one else is using them - you don't want someone to plug in a kettle and trip a fuse in the middle of a guitar solo (which as we know is the most important part of a song!). Something I now always do is have part of the system dedicated solely to vocals, Eg 2 12 cabs on stands for vocals and 2 15 cabs on the stage for everything else (and some vocals). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 [quote name='Skinnyman' timestamp='1408365876' post='2529410'] We're using one kit for all the bands along with one bass head and cab as onstage monitor for the bass. Guitars will use their own amps or, ideally, just a pedal board that can DI to the board. Thanks for all the input, guys. The point about an RCD is a good one as is the comment about having a sub or two. Which brings up a question I asked in a different thread. My amp has a stereo sub out which is actually full frequency. I know that if I send that to a sub with a crossover, that will filter out the mids and highs. But do I need another crossover to the mains that will filter out the lows? [/quote] It depends on the tops... decent active ones have options to roll off the bass at a couple of default frequencies.. like 100-120hz but will feed thru the subs first and if matched they will roll off the top around that range.... so full range but nothing less that roll off point. This helps the tops drive harder as you aren't going to be putting hefty bass into working the woofer part of the top. Passive cabs need to be controlled by the cross-over which is basically a split signal determined by a frequency cross-over point. I'd ignore anything else and control through that dedicated signal crossover and then drive the tops and subs independently. You'll need 2 amps to do this IF you want to retain a stereo mix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Do you have 1 or 2 assistants, preferably with at least a modicum of competence, to do the on-stage work (moving mics around, patching into the multi, keeping things tidy and coping with emergencies such as mic stands moving...)..? If you've cables (multi-pair, power or speaker runs...) where there could be public access, the ideal is to cut a slit trench (side of a spade...) and bury them a bit, or, if not, try to get some carpet off-cut strips and cover the cables with them. Watch the weather forecast a couple of days beforehand, then every 6 hours or so. If the event finishes after dark, have torches and lanterns for tearing down (and coping with power outage; it happens...). If it's baking hot, have a good supply of fresh bottled water on hand. See if you can obtain a large bucket of patience. It may come in handy. Good luck with the venture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassmonkey Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Give the bands end times rather than start times. So you will offer them say 40 mins ending at 6.00. That will focus them on getting on asap rather than fannying about setting up then still expecting 40 mins (or however long they've been offered) The 5 mins notice before the end advice is good too. NEVER let em do one last song past their time, that impacts on whoever is following them. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassvox Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 hello again forgot to mention... If a mixer says SUB OUT it usually means a subset of the mix and has nothing to do with sub woofers (although it can be used to feed subwoofers - confused now?). Powered subs usually have an active crossover built in but it can get a bit complicated with powered mixers and passive tops. If you do manage to blag some powered subs you might just want to feed them from the mono out on your mixer and adjust the eq on the mixer to suit. Bare in mind that mostly all that will come out of them is the lower 10% of the kik drum, 5% bass, 2% floor tom and .01% detuned power chord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 have a f***ing great clock where the band can see it, then tell them they've got till certain time at which point the PA will be turned off, if they mess about getting started that's out of their time not the next bands diplomatically of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vsmith1 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 There is a lot of stuff about this sort of thing in Sound On Sound and the associated forums. I'd add that someone will forget something and having spares will be vital. I'd get some general MIC wind covers to take out any wind from getting into the MIC signals - especially the vocals. You might even get some coloured ones to help the engineers distinguish one MIC from another. See: [url="http://www.ld-systems.com/en/microphones/d-913-blk-windscreen-for-microphone-black/"] http://www.ld-systems.com/en/microphones/d-913-blk-windscreen-for-microphone-black/[/url] Just make sure that whoever is taking on the sound engineering role at the desk is fast thinking enough to cope with the inevitable changes, issues etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 [quote name='Bassmonkey' timestamp='1408369336' post='2529468'] Give the bands end times rather than start times. So you will offer them say 40 mins ending at 6.00. That will focus them on getting on asap rather than fannying about setting up then still expecting 40 mins (or however long they've been offered) [/quote] Nice psychology there! I've written that one down in my little black book - thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 If you're also responsible for scheduling tell the bands that their time starts 15 minutes (or what ever) after the last band finished, irrespective of whether they've started playing by then or not.[size=4] It will concentrate their mind on setting up quickly. Sadly it won't make the band just finished clear the stage any quicker!![/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Naturally every other band will have a lefty drummer and some bassists will want to stand on the opposite side to where you have put the amp and di box because "I always stand that side"...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Keep stage volume discipline, if someone is too loud, you must tell them to turn down. I you don't immediately enforce that, they'll all turn up to 11 and ruin your monitor mixes and FOH too. [i]You[/i] will be blamed for the sh*t sound, not the chump howling through his marshall stack. He will also blame you when he can't hear anything either. Take a pre-eq d.i feed for the bass, otherwise you'll be re-eqing and fiddling with the compressor all the set long. Different basses will vary, but at least keep control of gain and EQ. Plenty of power on the stage front for all those pedals. Label all your input cables once they are in, if you move them off stage(unused vox mic) or across stage(that ping pong bass amp), it will be invaluable. Have 3 spare d.i boxes cabled and labeled around the stage so that when the acc guitar/keyboard you weren't told about turns up, you are ready for it. Scan the stage all the time for moved or knocked mics, musos can't actually see them you see. Polythene sheets.... When it's going great, "what a great band" When it's going bad " crap sound engineer" Enjoy. : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinnyman Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1408368820' post='2529462'] Do you have 1 or 2 assistants, preferably with at least a modicum of competence, to do the on-stage work (moving mics around, patching into the multi, keeping things tidy and coping with emergencies such as mic stands moving...)..? If you've cables (multi-pair, power or speaker runs...) where there could be public access, the ideal is to cut a slit trench (side of a spade...) and bury them a bit, or, if not, try to get some carpet off-cut strips and cover the cables with them. Watch the weather forecast a couple of days beforehand, then every 6 hours or so. If the event finishes after dark, have torches and lanterns for tearing down (and coping with power outage; it happens...). If it's baking hot, have a good supply of fresh bottled water on hand. See if you can obtain a large bucket of patience. It may come in handy. Good luck with the venture. [/quote] I have a young lad helping out as my runner. He's reasonably smart so I think we'll be okay on that front and all the cables to and from the desk are being run overhead using a couple of convenient trees (having blocked off that entrance to the car park first of course! There's been some really good and valuable advice to my original post so thanks. I'm reassured that I'd covered a lot of this already but even more reassured by all the little hints and tips that will hopefully allow me to do a halfway professional job on the day. In some respects, I'm not too worried about getting criticised for everything that goes wrong, irrespective of who's fault, but I do want to make sure things go well and we raise as much money as possible for Stoke Mandeville. So, again, thanks to all for the insights. If it goes well on the day, much of the credit will be down to the collective wisdom of the BC community. Which I will claim for myself, of course.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 . . . which you will deserve for taking things seriously enough to double-check things by asking for advice. Good luck with everything and try to enjoy yourself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 When I ran a touring PA company, outside gigs had a rule, if the power run was more than 30 m we drove an earth spike in to the ground stage-side and RCD on to that from our board . Electric will take the easy route and down a 50m extension, round the ring main to the sink with a 20 year old earth tag is under the pub sink far less likely that through you and the stage. On sound, height is God, the higher the stack the better the sound, hence why 99% of big outdoors rigs are Martin array flown, if you can see it, you can hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure I understand the point of a stage earth spike because as I understand things an RCD doesn't use the earth connection to detect an imbalance between the Live & Neutral conductors. Edit: I think I was misunderstanding the position of the RCD. I use an RCD on the outdoor stage and don't rely on the one (if any) in the consumer unit, so there are no long cables back to the RCD on stage. Anyway, I found this document from the IET which gives a good explanation of such things. http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/20/entertainment.cfm?type=pdf Edited August 18, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 That document is quite confusing as it shows the earth going through the RCDs on the diagram, your first impressions were right imo FF, unless you know what you are doing banging stakes in is pointless, for example and I wont bang on too much, a crap ext reel of 25m plugged into the mains indoors will probably give you an earth reading of lets say 3.50 ohms which would be quite poor I agree but an earth stake using the ext reel live as one conductor (R1) as a fixed given and this temporary stake as the return (R2) would be very unlikely to be less than 200 ohms, probably more like 500 so the flow to earth is still going to take the ext reel path as its much less resistant, if that makes sense? Generated power is different because YOU are providing the earth at the stake put in near the gene, your stakes around the site then use the actual grounds conductivity to flow back to the main stake, earth itself is a confusing term because the electricity only flows to earth on a fixed electrical supply because the energy suppliers have put earth plates in the ground at each sub station. Easiest way just use an RCD on the front of each reel, if 30mA of electricity does not return via the neutral it turns off regardless of where it went that it shouldn't have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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