Amp without a DI

[Salt on your Bass?]

Hi All,

Wasnt exactly sure to post this so I'll try here. I'm getting my first valve amp in the next day or two which I cant wait for. It doesn't have a DI so my feeling is to mic my cab at bigger venues - to get the benefit of the amp.

Just wondered what a decent bass mic would be - what do you recommend? Also, is this the right approach or should I be sending a DI to the desk as well as a mic'd signal?

Thanks very much!

[mrtcat]

Like many things in the bass world budget will dictate to an extent. There's nothing wrong with just using a mic or just using a DI or using both. It sounds like you are acquiring a nice amp so a mic would let you send your sound to the sound engineer. However the sound you have on stage may not suit front of house. At this point a di box in line from your guitar would give the sound engineer a clean basic tone to work with.
I use a shure beta 52a mic (it has a bit of mid scoop that you need to be aware of)and I like the sound. Others will be able to give you experience based suggestions of other mics. I would also look at a di box (doesn't need to be particularly expensive) in case you need it. Most engineers want a pre eq signal so either run it in line between bass and amp or pre eq from your effects loop if this is possible. I use a sansamp as it has tone shaping (again others can recommend based on their experiences) but you could also use a more simple box.
Hope this helps.

[Jenty]

I think it depends on who the engineer is whenever you play these bigger venues.
If it's your PA and you are the engineer then it's not too much of a problem having your own mic I suppose.
But I wouldn't be letting another engineer mess with my expensive mics. Saying that it wouldn't have to be expensive. You could always just use a D112 or similar as I know some engineers do.

I would have a preference to use a separate DI exclusive box with a clean feed of your bass and let the bass sing if you have a decent one.

I understand some people like the 'sound' that an amp can give but I have always been a fan of not clouding the sound and having a pure clean feed for my bass.
But that's just my opinion.

[6v6]

If you want to capture the sound of the amp but aren't too worried about micing, you could consider a passive DI box like a [url="http://www.palmer-germany.com/mi/en/PDI-09-Passive-DI-Box-for-Guitars-PDI09.htm"]palmer PDI-09[/url] - these don't contain a dummy load (although other models do) so you'll need to run with the speaker connected, but it would provide you something close to the mic'd sound without the hassle (feedback, positioning, spill etc) and inconsistency of actually micing the cab (you could do both of course).

My preference would be DI, optionally supplemented with a SM57 or SM58 on the cab for recording. I have a beta52 which is good on kick, but it personally wouldn't be my choice for bass cabs, due to the eq curve built in as previously mentioned.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1408354252' post='2529185']However the sound you have on stage may not suit front of house.
[/quote]

Why not?

Surely the sound coming out of the bass cab(s) is one that you have carefully crafted to fit in with the overall band sound. Anything other than that but louder through the PA would be wrong.

No one would ever consider asking a guitarist to DI instead of mic'ing their amp so why do bassist get such short shrift?

[HazBeen]

I use the AKG D112, it works really well is not too expensive and is rugged. But getting a DI box is also a good idea, best case both on larger venues.

[brensabre79]

I have a passive DI box that will take speaker levels for DI (loads available) - all the valve goodness with no spill, beware that whatever comes out of your amp will be eq'd for the speaker cab, so might need some adjustment at the desk to match it through the PA...

...and as for a mic, I have always used a Sennheiser MD421 because I have one, they sound sweet but they aint cheap. (£300+)

You basically need a large diaphragm dynamic mic for live use. AKG D112 is really a bass drum mic, but I've seen them work well. Shure PG52s are a pretty good low priced option too, or for a bit more you can get the Beta. You'll probably get away with an SM57 - they have a slightly lower frequency response than the 58 (40Hz if I remember ).

More important than the above though is placing the mic in the right place, the best mic in the workd can sound awful if it's in the wrong place! if it's pointing at the centre of the speaker cone it'll be very bright, move toward the edge and it will be dull. So it's a case of adjusting to taste really depending on your sound. Finding the sweet spot can be tricky, but once you have it though, put a square of tape around the head of the mic on the speaker grille so you'll know for next time


And finally... Depending on where you play, and how accommodating the engineer is. If you ask for the bass to be mic'd up, they should generally have a suitable mic themselves. I rarely take my 421 on the road these days, which is why i have the DI.

[Salt on your Bass?]

Thanks for the feedback guys, some good food for thought here. I think my preferred approach for a gig on 29th will be to contact the sound guy ahead of the gig and tell him how I want to run stuff and see what happens from there. I'd like to grab a mic in the future and didnt realise there were post power DIs which would probably be worth looking into actually as that sounds like a really elegant solution if it acts as I assume it does.

I definitely want to include the power section in my sound, otherwise whats the point of going all valve

Edited August 19, 2014 by Salt on your Bass?

[Alec]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1408367582' post='2529439']
More important than the above though is placing the mic in the right place, the best mic in the workd can sound awful if it's in the wrong place! if it's pointing at the centre of the speaker cone it'll be very bright, move toward the edge and it will be dull. So it's a case of adjusting to taste really depending on your sound. Finding the sweet spot can be tricky, but once you have it though, put a square of tape around the head of the mic on the speaker grille so you'll know for next time

And finally... Depending on where you play, and how accommodating the engineer is. If you ask for the bass to be mic'd up, they should generally have a suitable mic themselves. I rarely take my 421 on the road these days, which is why i have the DI.
[/quote]
+1 to position being critical. In all my years as an engineer, miking bass amps tends to require the most effort to get them to sound good. That's probably the biggest reason why I prefer to DI. And pretty much everyone we've had in expects to DI - very few have asked to be miked instead/as well.
For this reason, I don't have any dedicated bass amp mics. While I carry some serious value mic stock (over £400 just in/on the kick) the need for bass just hasn't been there to justify it. And, typically, in our small venue, the bassist who insists on the cab being miked is likely to be so loud that it'd be a bit futile anyway...

[quote name='Jenty' timestamp='1408356905' post='2529227']
But I wouldn't be letting another engineer mess with my expensive mics.
[/quote]
They'd hardly be messing with it. They'd be putting it on a stand and plugging it in. Many singers will bring their own, often *far* more expensive mics. If you have a mic that you're happy gets your sound, then you're doing everyone a favour by bringing it with you.

[Salt on your Bass?]

Just read up on the [url="http://www.palmer-germany.com/mi/en/PDI-09-Passive-DI-Box-for-Guitars-PDI09.htm"]palmer PDI-09[/url][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] - looks like a neat solution that would suit me. I dont use my speakers for sound as such so that looks pretty good. Any draw backs associated with it other than the desk eq'ing?[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Cheers [/font][/color]

[brensabre79]

Yep the Palmer looks like a good box. I have the Markbass Super Pro DI, but essentially the same thing in a yellow box.

The only thing you might come up against with these is the power handling of the DI box. i.e. you may have to turn dow the master vol. on the amp to avoid distorting the DI - this may mean the amp is quiet on stage.

Also, if you turn the amp up for on stage monitoring, be mindful that this will turn you up out front, and the engineer will have to compensate on the desk gain. Similar with EQ on your amp - make a change and the engineer has to make a change.

An experienced engineer will probably know this already and as such may be reluctant, unless you assure hi that once your amp level is set you ain't gonna turn it up when you can' hear yourself...

i should add, that when I have used a mic on my bass amp I have also used a DI from the bass (the usual way, not after the amp). most of the time this DI signal makes up the majority of the bass sound out front.

So get the DI box by all means, but be prepared for some resistance from in-house engineers. Especially if you're on one of those 3 or 4 bands doing half hour sets type of nights. I've been on the other side of the desk for these many a time and it's like organising a school trip half the time. Some tone junky with a 40 year old amp that he wants special treatment for is likely to add to the stress - meaning it's not going to get much time spent on it.

As an engineer I'd probably stick a mic near it and use the DI signal, nod, smile, thumbs up, "OK thanks, rhythm guitar please"

[Salt on your Bass?]

Cheers, that all makes sense - although I thought the attenuation on it meant that it would be possible to crank the amp then attenuate the singal down (obviously crank it to stage level at least). My lightweight rig is a walkabout so I think it would be the same DI "problem". I'm pretty happy once checked - just set and forget, then always use monitors for additional level if needed.

[Ant]

i have a palmer pdi 09 im not using if you're after one? its the older version without ground lift

[paul_5]

I've often had to DI straight from the bass, then split the signal between the balanced out to front of house and my bass rig. Sound engineers can be fussy buggers and more often than not they'll have a selection of DI boxes that they favour, and it's best not to upset them...

…most of the time.

[Monckyman]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1408365055' post='2529393']
Why not?

Surely the sound coming out of the bass cab(s) is one that you have carefully crafted to fit in with the overall band sound. Anything other than that but louder through the PA would be wrong.

No one would ever consider asking a guitarist to DI instead of mic'ing their amp so why do bassist get such short shrift?
[/quote]
This old chestnut.
IMO because the "carefully crafted" sound you have has been monitored through a small ish rig, compared to a decent P.A, and the tone balance invariably doesn't work.
The nearest analogy I can think of quickly is bedroom DJs mixing their latest epic,carefully crated on their entry level monitors, and when they get it played on a half decent P.A, all those subsonic frequencies they couldn't hear at home, come blanging out, and have to be removed compressed and contained within the larger mix.
Now, I'm not saying your amp tone can't be replicated through a P.A, it can, but not quickly or easily, because those complicated low end frequencies tend to react differently the louder they are amplified.
Guitar amps on the other hand, ARE relatively easy to amplify and retain their original tone partly because they lack those sub sonic frequencies that are so problematic in larger venues and are much easier to define and place in a mix.
Most engineers will use a mic and a D.I, the D.I will provide the meat of the signal and the definition, as it will be clean of the amp eq and compression, which is set to suit whatever speaker array you have on stage,with the mic providing the tone of the amp pedals and stack to overlay that initial body.
Trust me, if engineers could chuck a mic on a bass cab as easily as they do a guitar cab,without fearing the sonic consequences, they would.
HTH

Edited August 19, 2014 by Monckyman

[0175westwood29]

I've done a thread on something similar to this in the past, I wnt let a sound man take a di before my amp, as with my pedals it doesn't work, the signal needs to go thru my head and cab to sound like it should, if no way to mic it the I use the di from my head, but it's not from speaking with engineers at gigs a big deal to eq for a mic over di, and with fuzz sounds a mic is better IMO.

Andy

Edited August 23, 2014 by 0175westwood29

[mazdah]

I never liked D112, I love good old trusty Shure SM57 for miking my bass cabinet.
I play Ampeg, the amp IS the instrument (or a part of a instrument) and I choose it because I wanted THIS specific sound. I don't like it to be ruined by DIboxes.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1408365055' post='2529393']

No one would ever consider asking a guitarist to DI instead of mic'ing their amp so why do bassist get such short shrift?
[/quote]

i generally think its because its the done thing, i always ask if the venue is big enough to be mic'd rather than di, with fuzz it just sounds better.

andy

[Salt on your Bass?]

Interesting point on fuzz as well as I use fuzz in pretty much everything it's nearly an always on pedal. Only other consideration I have is I use a sub as well and I'm often on the 4 band's in a night kinda scenario so don't want to cause a venue a pain in the arse especially if it's my first night there.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Salt on your Bass?' timestamp='1408973928' post='2535072']
Interesting point on fuzz as well as I use fuzz in pretty much everything it's nearly an always on pedal. Only other consideration I have is I use a sub as well and I'm often on the 4 band's in a night kinda scenario so don't want to cause a venue a pain in the arse especially if it's my first night there.
[/quote]

im lucky in a way that im normally later into those kinda night but all four bands cant have the same bass sound? again this is kinda another situation where we've been led to except the easiest way,

it takes seconds to put the mic infront of the cab and as i said above they should have a bit of eq to do on the di anyway so not much dif doing that on a mic(i know its not that easy in reality) but if you ask before hand and explain the reasons why ive personally never had trouble.

if you get a valve amp you want that power section heard

andy

[chrismuzz]

Most sound engineers would never dream of micing a bass amp (I don't know why this is).. my suggestion would be to buy your own mic (possibly stand too)

[cheddatom]

When I used to gig on bass I'd be very nice to the soundman, get them to take a DI after my pedals, ask them to take the top off the DI and mic my rig taking the bottom off this mic. Most of the time they'd just DI and have me too low in the mix. Sometimes they'd oblige. You get used to it after a while!

[Salt on your Bass?]

yeah thats why i considered buying mic rather than DI or a blend. Sound guy for my gig this friday (in Hitchin if you're about ) has said he'll just mic the cab - nice! I guess it pays to speak with the sound guy first and foremost - I'll probably end up picking up a post power DI at some point and see how that fairs. I can see a bit of trial and error in my future!

[budget bassist]

[quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1408365067' post='2529396']
I use the AKG D112, it works really well is not too expensive and is rugged. But getting a DI box is also a good idea, best case both on larger venues.
[/quote]
This, or any other kick drum mic should suit.

[cheddatom]

low end is so difficult... If you can persuade the soundman to use your own mic, you can probably persuade him to use a DI for the low end, and mic the cab for the high mids and top, in which case a SM57 would be fnie