Difference between speaker sizes?

[Painy]

Seems one of the most popular topics on here is which size driver to use, with the obligatory response always surfacing that larger cones don't mean more bass / smaller cones don't mean punchier etc.
So my question is, what difference does driver size actualy make to the sound? If there's really no difference between them then why do we need the range of sizes we have available?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Painy' timestamp='1408564532' post='2531457']
So my question is, what difference does driver size actualy make to the sound? If there's really no difference between them then why do we need the range of sizes we have available?
[/quote]The only factor determined by size alone is the angle of dispersion. The larger the driver the smaller the dispersion angle as frequency goes higher. That's why guitar drivers beam like mad in the highs. It's also the primary reason why tweeters are smaller than midranges, and midranges smaller than woofers.
The main advantage to a larger cone is that it takes fewer of them to reach a given combination of low frequency extension and output, but at the expense of dispersion. In theory one may use, for instance, eight tens to get the same low frequency output as three fifteens, without giving up dispersion. But if you put those tens in two rows side by side the dispersion angle becomes the same as a twenty-one, so an 8x10 has narrower dispersion than a vertical stack of three 1x15s.

[JPJ]

So what am I 'hearing' because in a blind test I swear I could tell the difference between a 10", 12" and a 15" speaker

[Lozz196]

I think that each brand will try and make each of its speakers have a sound that`s different from each other, and with a few I`ve had, the 1x15s with the same eq were bassier/less toppy than the 410s/210s of the same brand/range. Specifically my Marshall MB cabs and my Hartke XL cabs. But in a blind test I`m sure I couldn`t tell any speaker sizes at all. But from different brands, well put a Markbass 212, Fender 410, GK 115 all with the same bass/amp through it, I`m sure I`d never be able to tell the speaker sizes apart.

[Painy]

[quote name='JPJ' timestamp='1408566130' post='2531467']
So what am I 'hearing' because in a blind test I swear I could tell the difference between a 10", 12" and a 15" speaker
[/quote]

I suspect some manufacturers may play up to people's perception that larger speakers are bassier etc. by designing the voicing of their enclosures to match that expectation?

Or basically what Lozz just said!

Edited August 20, 2014 by Painy

[Painy]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408565260' post='2531462']
The only factor determined by size alone is the angle of dispersion. The larger the driver the smaller the dispersion angle as frequency goes higher. That's why guitar drivers beam like mad in the highs. It's also the primary reason why tweeters are smaller than midranges, and midranges smaller than woofers.
The main advantage to a larger cone is that it takes fewer of them to reach a given combination of low frequency extension and output, but at the expense of dispersion. In theory one may use, for instance, eight tens to get the same low frequency output as three fifteens, without giving up dispersion. But if you put those tens in two rows side by side the dispersion angle becomes the same as a twenty-one, so an 8x10 has narrower dispersion than a vertical stack of three 1x15s.
[/quote]

At the risk of displaying my ignorance, could you define dispersion? Are we basically just talking about spread of sound e.g. how well we hear the sound is affected by where we are positioned in relation to the speakers? Or in other words, will 3 vertically stacked 15s fill a venue with bass more completely and evenly than the classic 8x10 fridge configuration at the same volume?

[HowieBass]

There's certainly a difference between the TC BG250 combos with 1x15", 1x12", 2x10" and 2x8" drivers demonstrated in the BassTheWorld demo (comparison starts at about 9:40)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc4rj6EhB7M

I like the 2x10" tone best and that's the driver arrangement I ended up going for (a 210T) with my Genz Benz combo.

Edited August 21, 2014 by icastle
Link Fixed.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Painy' timestamp='1408567731' post='2531486']
At the risk of displaying my ignorance, could you define dispersion? Are we basically just talking about spread of sound e.g. how well we hear the sound is affected by where we are positioned in relation to the speakers? [/quote]Yes. [quote]Or in other words, will 3 vertically stacked 15s fill a venue with bass more completely and evenly than the classic 8x10 fridge configuration at the same volume?
[/quote]Yes, although the difference will be heard in the mids and highs, not the bass.
[quote]So what am I 'hearing' because in a blind test I swear I could tell the difference between a 10", 12" and a 15" speaker[/quote]If all speaker sizes had a 'signature sound' then all tens would sound the same, as would all twelves and all fifteens. Not only is that not the case, but you can make the same driver sound different by loading it into a different enclosure. For that matter you can realize literally dozens of audibly different sounds using the same driver with different cab configurations.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408569476' post='2531513']
Yes. Yes, although the difference will be heard in the mids and highs, not the bass.
If all speaker sizes had a 'signature sound' then all tens would sound the same, as would all twelves and all fifteens. Not only is that not the case, but you can make the same driver sound different by loading it into a different enclosure. For that matter you can realize literally dozens of audibly different sounds using the same driver with different cab configurations.
[/quote] so.... thinking out loud and hoping to take advantage of your knowledge.... if the only real factor is dispersion.... what would you use as optimum for bass? I know you use a 12 loaded horn loaded cab yourself....

I just wonder sometimes if we end up with all these different sizes because of fashion rather than design. Like you can see why a 810 was developed... and I guess a 410 is logical next step.... but mixing it with a 115 like you often see... doesn't make much sense.... and 112's seem to be in vogue at the moment... I guess they tend to be louder than the uncommon 110 and smaller and more portable than a 115...

[HowieBass]

Bill will probably describe this better but I know that when building cabinets, how they're braced and wall thickness/stiffness, you have to design the box with an understanding of how those drivers will behave inside that amount of space and whether the cabinet is sealed or ported, how bass response rolls off, whether any resonances occur... they all play a part in how it will sound.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1408571394' post='2531538']
so.... thinking out loud and hoping to take advantage of your knowledge.... if the only real factor is dispersion.... what would you use as optimum for bass? I know you use a 12 loaded horn loaded cab yourself....
[/quote]I use the largest cab that I can comfortably carry, that's a JackLite 12, as opposed to the larger JL15 or smaller JL10. If it wasn't loud enough I'd probably use two JL10s, which would give higher output while still fitting in my car with ease. I have a JL15, I've only used it a couple of times, those being before I built the JL12. I just don't need its output capability, and it's a PITA to fit into my car.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1408572047' post='2531544']
Bill will probably describe this better but I know that when building cabinets, how they're braced and wall thickness/stiffness, you have to design the box with an understanding of how those drivers will behave inside that amount of space and whether the cabinet is sealed or ported, how bass response rolls off, whether any resonances occur... they all play a part in how it will sound.
[/quote] aye, but being someone who designs cabs, and can prob tweak things to fit how he wants can prob get the sound he's aiming for with any size speaker.
[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408576835' post='2531588']
I use the largest cab that I can comfortably carry, that's a JackLite 12, as opposed to the larger JL15 or smaller JL10. If it wasn't loud enough I'd probably use two JL10s, which would give higher output while still fitting in my car with ease. I have a JL15, I've only used it a couple of times, those being before I built the JL12. I just don't need its output capability, and it's a PITA to fit into my car.
[/quote] cheers Bill

[molan]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408569476' post='2531513']
Yes. Yes, although the difference will be heard in the mids and highs, not the bass.
If all speaker sizes had a 'signature sound' then all tens would sound the same, as would all twelves and all fifteens. Not only is that not the case, but you can make the same driver sound different by loading it into a different enclosure. For that matter you can realize literally dozens of audibly different sounds using the same driver with different cab configurations.
[/quote]

Simple example of this would be the Aguilar DB and GS ranges. Same speakers in all of them but they definitely sound noticeably different.

I've tried a pair of DB112's vs GS112's and it was easy to tell them apart in a blind test.

[JTUK]

Not sure about getting something out of a speaker that isn't there..
If you take frequencies that can be produced from the unit... a chassis that works upto 2khz is going to be bass orientated.
I think most bass players should be able to hear that... against one that can put out 4.5khz level, for example.
Depends what you expect or want sound-wise.

[JPJ]

I'm such a geek, I find threads like this one fascinating. At the end of the day a loudspeaker is simply a piston device designed to move a volume of air. The fascinating bit for me is the interconnection/reaction between the loudspeaker, its enclosure and the surrounding environment. I'd love the chance to play my bass through my amp (known variables) through a variety of speaker sizes, each housed in a box optimised for: a) the chosen speaker; amplifying bass guitar, in one of those acoustic chambers

[chrismuzz]

This might be a ridiculous question, but if you filled a cab with like 32 tweeters would you get good low end response with better dispersion on the highs?

[discreet]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408576835' post='2531588']
I use the largest cab that I can comfortably carry, that's a JackLite 12, as opposed to the larger JL15 or smaller JL10. If it wasn't loud enough I'd probably use two JL10s, which would give higher output while still fitting in my car with ease. I have a JL15, I've only used it a couple of times, those being before I built the JL12. I just don't need its output capability, and it's a PITA to fit into my car.
[/quote]

I have two Jack 12s... the older, heavier ones. Both together they do sound totally immense, though. They each have a Kappa 3012HO in them.
They didn't seem heavy to start with, especially compared with my two ABM 410s, but the older I get... maybe it's time to build a couple of JackLites..? And fill them with Helium, perhaps...?

Edited August 21, 2014 by discreet

[Bassman Steve]

I also find this fascinating but my understanding is pretty crude.

I have always found 10" speakers to make me sound a bit 'crude' (like listening through cans to a DI in the studio) whereas I've stayed with 15's because they seem to forgive my crude technique and just thump out a big note. I sort of thought that would be because the 10" cone can react quicker.

I'm probably describing this terribly but that's just my experience/guess.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1408626296' post='2531952']
This might be a ridiculous question, but if you filled a cab with like 32 tweeters would you get good low end response with better dispersion on the highs?
[/quote]No, because tweeters are made with specs optimized for the band width that they operate in. You can get a very good result with a large grouping of smaller drivers which do have specs appropriate for electric bass. But they must not be placed side by side, or the dispersion angle shrinks back to that of a single driver of the same width. The right way to do so is to have them in a single vertical line. For that matter that's how a 4x10 should be made, but they aren't, because what sells cabs isn't technology, it's how they look.
[quote]I sort of thought that would be because the 10" cone can react quicker.[/quote]All drivers 'react' with the exact same 'qiuckness', as that 'quickness' is determined by the speed at which an electron wave passes through the voice coil, about 0.7 times the speed of light. What does tend to be different with smaller drivers is their transient response, which is related to the inertial forces of the moving mass. But as you can find somes tens with higher moving mass than some eighteens here again you can't judge the end result by size alone. Your wife/girfriend will give you confirmation on that.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[discreet]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408631356' post='2532022']
The right way to do so is to have them in a single vertical line. For that matter that's how a 4x10 should be made, but they aren't, because what sells cabs isn't technology, it's how they look.
[/quote]

I've often thought the same. You can use two 2X10 stacked on end, so why not one cab with four in-line drivers..?
Surely it couldn't be any more awkward to get into a car?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1408631580' post='2532031']
I've often thought the same. You can use two 2X10 stacked on end, so why not one cab with four in-line drivers..?
Surely it couldn't be any more awkward to get into a car?
[/quote]

I wouldn't want to balance this on top of that column...

[attachment=169789:Hiwa_1.jpg]

We're quite happy with...

[attachment=169790:DSC00316.jpg]

Dispersion be damned; there's a PA for that..! [size=4] [/size]

Edited August 21, 2014 by Dad3353

[Painy]

So out of interest, what effect is made to the dispersion in cabs where you have 2 drivers but positioned across the diagonal rather than immediately side by side or one above the other?

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408631356' post='2532022']
No, because tweeters are made with specs optimized for the band width that they operate in. You can get a very good result with a large grouping of smaller drivers which do have specs appropriate for electric bass. But they must not be placed side by side, or the dispersion angle shrinks back to that of a single driver of the same width. The right way to do so is to have them in a single vertical line. For that matter that's how a 4x10 should be made, but they aren't, because what sells cabs isn't technology, it's how they look.
[/quote]

Thanks for humouring me I forgot about the vertical stacking thing!

But yes you're 100% right about selling cabs being based on the looks... I prefer my Markbass CL104 to the 104HF I used to have. It's less sensitive, no ports, and the tweeter only has an on/off switch instead of a dial attenuator... It's also made from chip board instead of poplar ply... But it's got black speakers and black grille cloth!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Painy' timestamp='1408642779' post='2532187']
So out of interest, what effect is made to the dispersion in cabs where you have 2 drivers but positioned across the diagonal rather than immediately side by side or one above the other?
[/quote]The overall width of the radiating planne determines the angle of horizontal dispersion. If a diagonal placement reduces that width compared to side by side it's better, but it still won't be as narrow as vertical drivers.

[quote]Dispersion be damned; there's a PA for that..! [/quote]On this side of the pond I doubt that one in ten bass players is in the PA.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408645760' post='2532223']
On this side of the pond I doubt that one in ten bass players is in the PA.
[/quote]

Really? We're very lucky over here! In my current band I've only ever done like three gigs where I wasn't through the PA. And one where I was for the first three songs, but the sound engineer liked my tone so much from my cab that he told me to turn up super loud and he'd adjust the rest of the band around me! I was so obscenely loud on stage, if I wasn't so selfish I'd have felt bad... hence my title "Rhythm guitarist drowner outer"

Edited August 21, 2014 by chrismuzz