phil.c60 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 ....and breaking news: the streets of London are not paved with gold. Like everyone else here, I don't mind doing gigs for free, especially local charity gigs, for all the reasons above. Pay to play? I don't think so. I'd sooner hire the bandstand in a local town center for a couple of hours and show off properly! Having said that, up and coming bands often have to pay (OK, "contribute to the touring expenses of") bigger/more well known bands they support on tour. Depends where in the game you're at, I suppose, and where you think it might get you. I am, (like most posters here, I suspect) someone who plays as a hobby for which I am fortunate to get paid: I'm not looking to be the next big thing. We play some places where we get good money, and some tiny places where they have a good reputation for music but can't pay much because the venue doesn't hold many but you can pass the jug round (a good way of working out whether they really liked you!). They are mostly pub gigs so they don't charge entry, and we never have a problem getting repeat bookings. None of them has ever asked us to pay, and if a prospective venue did I think I'd pmsl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0175westwood29 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 am i the only one that thinks its unfair to expect an out of town band to bring alot of ppl to a gig unless they are a well known or are beginning to get there name out there and be well known? if we have out of town bands playing with us i make it a point to promote the crap out of it! and try to get bodies in! not ask those bands to bring 10 ppl each, i would hope they would promote it themselves however its down to the local bands to draw in the crowd (as promoters very rarely these days actually promote) weve said no to gigs like this because we just wouldnt sell the tickets atm, andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_the_bass Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 [quote name='ricksterphil' timestamp='1408771035' post='2533328'] Interesting stuff and I like the we blink thing for tickets (I presume it's Eventbrite or similar) The skill of self-promotion is key....and social media platforms make this possible if you're prepared to put the work in. I guess if a band can build up a big enough following it's easier to demand more cash to play if you know you'll get 100 or so through the door [/quote] It's music glue. My gut feeling is; it's a setup that will work well for newer bands in the local area and out of town bands that have a good following in the area. The bands that it will definitely alienate are the out of town bands that are on the brink of making the push to the big time but have a minimal following in the area. This venue has always had a steady stream of bands/artists that fall in to this category and they used to get paid a good fee to play with the rest of the bill being made up of good local acts that usually draw a crowd. Now; that out of town band will end up playing for expenses or less to a packed out room whilst the two bands below them split the remaining £400 - 500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 [quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1408784514' post='2533399'] Having said that, up and coming bands often have to pay (OK, "contribute to the touring expenses of") bigger/more well known bands they support on tour. [/quote] Indeed - and I reckon it happens more often than we think. That '[i]with very special guests ...[/i]' thing on posters always seems a bit suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old_Ben Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 following the sentiment of everyone here, never pay to play, even if you're sure you could sell those tickets, your best bet is to find a promoter who puts on bands you would like to (realistically) play with, and start talking to them about what it would take to get you on the bill. A real promoter usually will take a chance and put you on a local night at a small venue without many outgoings to put bands on and see how many people you can bring. A good promoter won't need you to pay to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougieb Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I have not heard of any Pay to Play gigs here in Central/South Scotland although I may be wrong. They mainly want you to play for nothing in a few well known venues in Glasgow and Edinburgh, claim that it is exposure for your band. You are expected to play around an hour and entertain their clients whilst being just one of a shitload of bands who play every night. On the two occasions that we were stupid enough to do it, we ended up doing 2 hours plus as the other bands did not turn up. We did this for the punters who were enjoying our music and not for the venues in question. I may add that one well known venue wouldn't even give you a glass of water farless a beer for free, cheapos! Never play for free or pay to play. You are a professional musician who has invested your time, gear and experience and you should be paid end of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 (edited) [quote name='dougieb' timestamp='1408898986' post='2534436'] Never play for free or pay to play. You are a professional musician who has invested your time, gear and experience and you should be paid end of. [/quote] But the vast majority of people doing these kind of gigs aren't professional, which is why there is a continuous stream of free and pay to play gigs. If you aren't reliant on music as your income, which most people on the pay to play scene aren't, then the idea that they are playing for 'exposure' is the most important thought. As long as there are bands that are willing to play these gigs, there will be venues who will take advantage. One of my questions/problems with these situations is that surely the idea of playing in a new city is to gain new fans, so why would you just bring the same ones (often family and friends) who can see you most weeks locally and for free? Edited August 24, 2014 by Doddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 The 'playing for exposure' point is an interesting one in itself. I'm not a professional musician (not good enough) and the bands I play with are not (good enough) either, but we enjoy playing and gigging and writing our own songs. We have no pretensions about 'making it big' and so the idea of travelling far and wide in order to gain extra exposure is not really one we've thought seriously about. We play mostly for free (beer), but we don't incur any significant costs in doing so because we stay local. We've done a couple of gigs in Wales, but that was for a friend's 'mini festival' weekend and was more of a party really. So I seriously doubt a 'promoter' could entice us into paying to play 'for the exposure', because we're not really interested in the things that would benefit from such exposure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 It all sounds very much like the musical equivalent of vanity publishing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408900013' post='2534451'] But the vast majority of people doing these kind of gigs aren't professional, which is why there is a continuous stream of free and pay to play gigs. If you aren't reliant on music as your income, which most people on the pay to play scene aren't, then the idea that they are playing for 'exposure' is the most important thought. As long as there are bands that are willing to play these gigs, there will be venues who will take advantage. One of my questions/problems with these situations is that surely the idea of playing in a new city is to gain new fans, so why would you just bring the same ones (often family and friends) who can see you most weeks locally and for free? [/quote] But while people will play for free, Bands who can and do want to earn lose out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linear Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 (edited) [quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1408918003' post='2534644'] But while people will play for free, Bands who can and do want to earn lose out... [/quote] I'm not sure the above is necessarily the case, but if it were, wouldn't it just be an example of free market operation? What's the alternative? Unionisation and protectionism? Lets say I was in a band of independently wealthy individuals - shouldn't we be able to play for free if we so choose? It seems odd that we would be compelled to charge a fee purely to protect the income of [i]other people[/i]. Why should we? If you want to earn a fee, you have to actually [i]earn[/i] it, i.e. provide a product that venues feel is worth paying for. If other people are giving away for free the exact same thing you are trying to sell, then surely you've made some very poor business decisions. Edited August 24, 2014 by linear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Indeed - that is the dilemma. No easy answer methinks, but I certainly don't believe anyone has a 'right' to earn money playing music just because that's what they wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='linear' timestamp='1408919396' post='2534654'] If you want to earn a fee, you have to actually [i]earn[/i] it, i.e. provide a product that venues feel is worth paying for. If other people are giving away for free the exact same thing you are trying to sell, then surely you've made some very poor business decisions. [/quote] It doesn't work like that though, does it? Certainly not in the pub scene, where in a lot of cases the quality of the product is secondary to bar and/or ticket sales. There will always be bands who are happy to go out for little to no money and will bring their family with them.They are an attactive prospect to landlords, regardless of quality because they know that they will make a certain amount of money with minimum outlay. It's not really about the band making poor buisness decisions, it's about venues making good ones. Just out of interest, and so no one gets the wrong idea, I've done very few pub/club gigs over the last few years so it generally isn't really affecting me but it's still a concern when clubs offer various bands I work with gigs for money that wouldn't even cover expenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408932487' post='2534710'] There will always be bands who are happy to go out for little to no money and will bring their family with them.They are an attractive prospect to landlords, regardless of quality because they know that they will make a certain amount of money with minimum outlay.. [/quote] I,m not sure that's necessarily the case. I suppose if you have a town center venue that is mainly passing trade, that might be so, but the majority of pubs we play in have a music reputation and regulars who go to see the bands. Sure, we bring some extra, and that helps cover our money, but as one landlord commented when I said we like playing there because we always get a good responsive crowd "That's because I don't book sh*t bands" It's why getting gigs at these places can be a long and frustrating process if they don't know you/haven't seen you. You just have to persevere with the venues that you think are right for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@23 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Nuts to that. Glad we have never came across this bull. Edited August 25, 2014 by M@23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1408740538' post='2533192'] Its not just in London. That, and similar scams, like paying to use the rubbish house P.A have been going for years. [/quote] maybe that is why the (medway council run) Central Theatre has no decent billing to speak of these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 A good bill to a pub or venue is an 'asset' IMV, in that if the standard is perceived as higher, then people will go here on the off chance to see a band they don't know as they have bought into the LL/venue being good at picking good worthwhile bands. This helps the LL in that he knows people will come and it helps a new band as they have a ready-made audience.. That gets harder if the venue puts on 2 nights as there aren't enough good bands to fill the rosta over a 3 month type rotation. If you factor in the better bands charge more, then the idea gets diluted as the LL has a big task making it all work. He then may well,just accept that some nights will luck out and some wont and he may well take a punt on a band that don't play well but will bring in 40-50 people. The regulars might not turn up too much but the LL has achieve his number 1 goal.. he sold enough that night to make it worthwhile. I'd tend to look at it that some pubs and rostas aren't what we would be interested in... This generally leaves you with about 2 worthwhile pubs in any one town that pay the money, are big enough to play in and it is an all round decent experience. I've said it before, pubs are too much work for the money (imo) to not be able to tick off those 3 as a must-have. The trick is to be able to determine what you will do rather than have to take what is offered all the time. It goes without saying that a 'free' gig very very rarely qualifies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='linear' timestamp='1408919396' post='2534654'] I'm not sure the above is necessarily the case, but if it were, wouldn't it just be an example of free market operation? What's the alternative? Unionisation and protectionism? Lets say I was in a band of independently wealthy individuals - shouldn't we be able to play for free if we so choose? It seems odd that we would be compelled to charge a fee purely to protect the income of [i]other people[/i]. Why should we? If you want to earn a fee, you have to actually [i]earn[/i] it, i.e. provide a product that venues feel is worth paying for. If other people are giving away for free the exact same thing you are trying to sell, then surely you've made some very poor business decisions. [/quote] Just imagine you were a barman and one of the pubs punters offered to do your job for free, or pay the pub gaffer for the privilege. [size=4]The gaffer would then either expect you to do the same, or not use you at all.[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1408958106' post='2534818'] Just imagine you were a barman and one of the pubs punters offered to do your job for free, or pay the pub gaffer for the privilege. The gaffer would then either expect you to do the same, or not use you at all. [/quote] I'm guessing that there are a lot more recreational musicians than there are recreational bar staff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Exactly, and that's the 'problem'. Music is fun. People like to listen to it and they like to play it and they like to see people playing it and they like to have people watch them playing it. When people like something so much, they are prepared to do it for no, or very little, financial consideration. Anyone who wants to make money out of such a thing has to face that reality. Cue the plumber analogy . . . . Except it doesn't really work because plumbing isn't fun. No one really wants to be a plumber so they'll only do it for money. Music just isn't the same sort of thing. Simple fact of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408962945' post='2534896']...Simple fact of life. [/quote] Indeed; there are many examples of popular activities in which enthusiasts pay to participate. A few (list non-exhaustive...)..? Most marathons have an inscription fee. One pays one's entry into the 24 Hours Le Mans race, and the Paris-Dakar rally/race. Golf subscriptions (although there are clubs that charge on a 'turn up and play' basis...). In fact, most sporting events open to the public charge for the privilege of participation. Many entertainment venues work on this same principle, there should be no surprise nor hard feelings; as a wise man once said... "Simple fact of life". [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 ......And if the venue did what golf clubs do, ie provided a stage, a PA, a mixing desk with someone to run it properly, top quality backline, promoted the venue constantly, a changing room with showers, etc. etc. and all you had to do was turn up, plug in and play, then maybe, just maybe...hold on, I've just looked out of the window, and there goes that pig again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Or another angle . . . . Given that many live bands need a good audience to 'spark off', perhaps people could form 'audience troupes' to tour around venues and offer their 'services' to help ensure that live gigs really go down well. For a suitable fee of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 And around we go again... If playing for free wasn't an option because people and bands didn't do it... then the concept couldn't really exist.. just like that free 'plumber' So, bands don't really help themselves in alot of respects. Anyone want to be on our support bill...good exposure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408964974' post='2534931'] Or another angle . . . . Given that many live bands need a good audience to 'spark off', perhaps people could form 'audience troupes' to tour around venues and offer their 'services' to help ensure that live gigs really go down well. For a suitable fee of course. [/quote] Great. The pub or promoter could pay them, mark the fee up and add it to what the band owes him for letting them play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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