BILL POSTERS Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [size=4] [/size] [size=4] [/size] [size=4][quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408962945' post='2534896'][/size] Exactly, and that's the 'problem'. Music is fun. People like to listen to it and they like to play it and they like to see people playing it and they like to have people watch them playing it. When people like something so much, they are prepared to do it for no, or very little, financial consideration. Anyone who wants to make money out of such a thing has to face that reality. Cue the plumber analogy . . . . Except it doesn't really work because plumbing isn't fun. [b]No one really wants to be a plumber[/b] so they'll only do it for money. Music just isn't the same sort of thing. Simple fact of life. [/quote] Dont you think a plumber gets job satisfaction then ? Perhaps he would be better off with a degree, then he could work in McDonalds, [i]or even behind a bar somewhere... [/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoham Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='dougieb' timestamp='1408898986' post='2534436'] I have not heard of any Pay to Play gigs here in Central/South Scotland although I may be wrong. They mainly want you to play for nothing in a few well known venues in Glasgow and Edinburgh, claim that it is exposure for your band. You are expected to play around an hour and entertain their clients whilst being just one of a shitload of bands who play every night. On the two occasions that we were stupid enough to do it, we ended up doing 2 hours plus as the other bands did not turn up. We did this for the punters who were enjoying our music and not for the venues in question. I may add that one well known venue wouldn't even give you a glass of water farless a beer for free, cheapos! Never play for free or pay to play. You are a professional musician who has invested your time, gear and experience and you should be paid end of. [/quote] I've not been in an originals band for about 8 years, but back in the day this was about the only way a young originals band could get a gig in central Glasgow. In 1999, The Arena & Strawberry Fields (both now sadly gone!) on Oswald Street seemed to run an identical deal - 4 bands, all had to sell 20 tickets each at £4, handing over all the cash (£80). Anything over 20, and you could keep it. Plenty of other places that are still in business that I won't name had similar deals, right up until I quit my last originals band in about 2006. We played several times in a venue famous for being where a certain britpop band were discovered. Aside from a few local band nights that we 'headlined', we provided support to some signed, touring (but largely unknown!) bands. Also provided support to the guitarist from a well known 80's band who was doing a solo tour. In all of these, we had to sell tickets to play, plus supply the majority of the crowd. I know some folk playing in originals bands, and I get the impression it still goes on in Glasgow. Playing a decent venue on a quiet night, in front of a few mates who've paid a fiver to see you and three other bands play for 30 minutes each. My opinion is that they are a bit exploitative, but if done only occasionally, you can have a bring in a good crowd and make a little money. However, it may also be worthwhile looking at how much it would cost to hire a venue yourself. We did it once - it cost about £65 to hire Barfly on a Friday night, including a sound engineer. We could sell tickets for as much as we liked, and we decided on timings, line up etc. I got one mate to do an acoustic set, then another to do a rock set before we went on. I took £20 each from them, and they could kept whatever else they made from tickets. I know of at least one venue that will still offer a deal like that - and I know that some 'promoters' use it for pay to play nights! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1408967990' post='2534973']...If playing for [b]money[/b] wasn't an option because people and bands didn't do it... then the concept couldn't really exist...[/quote] ... and if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. The French equivalent is : "With 'ifs', Paris could be put into a bottle"..! 'Twould be nice, too, if venues paid systematically a gold bar to each band member, maybe. It's not going to happen next week, though, I'll wager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1408967990' post='2534973'] . . . So, bands don't really help themselves in alot of respects. [/quote] Not really true . . . Bands happy to play for free and helping themselves You may think that's a bad thing because it affects bands trying to earn money, but is it really any different to a shop that sells stuff cheaper than its competitors? We have laws against cartels for a reason don't we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408962945' post='2534896'] Exactly, and that's the 'problem'. Music is fun. People like to listen to it and they like to play it and they like to see people playing it and they like to have people watch them playing it. When people like something so much, they are prepared to do it for no, or very little, financial consideration. Anyone who wants to make money out of such a thing has to face that reality. Cue the plumber analogy . . . . Except it doesn't really work because plumbing isn't fun. No one really wants to be a plumber so they'll only do it for money. Music just isn't the same sort of thing. Simple fact of life. [/quote] I would have thought that quite a lot of people want to be plumbers. I don't buy your first point. If you want to just play for the fun of it, you can do that in a rehearsal room/garage.If you want people to watch you, invite them there or put on your own private event, but things change when you take your band out in to the public domain. I'd just typed out quite a long reply, but i don't think it's worth bothering anymore because the standard bad analogies will be brought out. Besides, I don't have a right to earn money from music because it's more fun than flipping burgers or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1408968637' post='2534981'] Dont you think a plumber gets job satisfaction then ? [/quote] Job satisfaction is different to enjoyment isn't it? I'm sure a plumber gets satisfaction from a job well done, but I'm equally sure that they don't enjoy it enough to choose to do it in the evenings and weekends as well, and for less money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408971036' post='2535020'] I would have thought that quite a lot of people want to be plumbers. [/quote] Perhaps, but only as a way of making money. Do you know any plumbers who love their work so much that they're happy to do it for nothing? [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408971036' post='2535020'] I don't buy your first point. If you want to just play for the fun of it, you can do that in a rehearsal room/garage.If you want people to watch you, invite them there or put on your own private event, but things change when you take your band out in to the public domain. [/quote] You're pre-judging the fun that people get from playing music. Some DO just play in a rehearsal room/garage, which is fine, but others do enjoy playing to an audience, which I'm sure you can understand. But given the choice of going to all the trouble of putting on your own private event or playing an existing venue for free, why not take the easy choice of playing for free? Why do things change when you take your band out into the public domain? Music is a broad spectrum isn't it? Bedroom players at one end and 100,000 seat stadium world tours at the other end. Even among 'pro' players there will be a huge range of earnings and talent. There's room for all isn't there? Edited August 25, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) We've been here before, several times. Some bands won't consider playing for less than 5 or 6 figure cheques. Some refuse if less than a few thousand. Some will only go out for hundreds. Some only want petrol money. Some do it for free. Some will pay, from their pocket, a fraction of their equipment cost to go on stage. Some venues wouldn't consider putting on a band below a certain cost. Some (most..?) know how much they have to budget for a show, including all actors and professions, such as bar staff, techs, security etc... Some venues run on a shoe-string, some have a remit to limit expenditure and maximise revenue. There are all sorts. There are swings, there are roundabouts. No single cloth fits all of these coats; they get cut accordingly. What the heck is the beef..? What is there to not understand, or get riled about..? If someone is not getting what they want from [i]any [/i]of this, they're not in the right spot, that's all. Yes, competition is keen, and it's a cruel world out there (as in most professions; no secret there...). Up your game and step up to the mark you're aiming for and stop grumbling about others. It's not up (nor down...) to [i]them[/i]; it's up to [i]you[/i]..! Edited August 25, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 My start-off is simple. If you can't get a fee, if is usually because they wont pay you what you are asking. There may be a reason why you really want to do the gig ..but I'll imagine that gig has money in it in some shape or form..just not for you. I don't really recognise the term 'professional' either as all that can really mean is that the guys tries to make a living from it... whereas the connetation is that the band is very good, which is not always the case at all. I've said often enough that I'm against free gigs but I know of a few gigs where the band claiming the headline slot is getting it as they are free and other bands on that bill have been 'asked' not to disuss fees ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408970957' post='2535019'] Not really true . . . Bands happy to play for free and helping themselves You may think that's a bad thing because it affects bands trying to earn money, but is it really any different to a shop that sells stuff cheaper than its competitors? We have laws against cartels for a reason don't we? [/quote] It certainly doesn't help pubs putting up the rates... when they know a lot of bands will work from zero to £150 why would they have to make a plan to pay double. £300 is getting to the top of what a pub can pay round here without door charges and upping the cost of a pint. They will have to sell 200 pints to make the cost of the band on the basis of earning £1.50 per pint. Maybe the margins are a little better than that in some places... but LL's are like so many others, they'll only pay what they have to pay... and therefore a band playing for £150 is distorting the market and in my view, if the market is £250 plus, that isn't a good thing. Their is also a difference between different values and no value ...as in 'free' No, we don't tend to play many pubs and the fee is one of the main reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I think that it depends: I'm against "free" gigs where you are providing something (entertainment, I hope) for free, and someone else is making a living off the back of that. It's really just exploitation of a band's keenness, desperation for exposure or gullibility, you choose, but charity gigs are a different thing :if you want to support it and play for free then really what you are doing is making a donation, just time and effort rather than money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbowskill Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408900013' post='2534451'] But the vast majority of people doing these kind of gigs aren't professional, which is why there is a continuous stream of free and pay to play gigs. If you aren't reliant on music as your income, which most people on the pay to play scene aren't, then the idea that they are playing for 'exposure' is the most important thought. As long as there are bands that are willing to play these gigs, there will be venues who will take advantage. One of my questions/problems with these situations is that surely the idea of playing in a new city is to gain new fans, so why would you just bring the same ones (often family and friends) who can see you most weeks locally and for free? [/quote] +1 on that question. A fair few promoters/venues that use the pay to play system ( sell x ammount of tickets etc) down the south west. i do and have had no problem playing for free to gain exposure,fans...Only doing original band material (no covers) but this always feels like doing the promoters work for him! we played the flece in bristol 3 years ago and had to sell 25 tickets,you try convincing 25 people to travel with you (and thats only 100 miles from me)..... needless to say we only sold 4..and the stess of possibly being told we cannot play took the fun and anticipation right out of the night! we got to play btw. i totally hate this idea and to me it seems like lazy promoting!? Edited August 25, 2014 by danbowskill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1408979511' post='2535161'] I think that it depends: I'm against "free" gigs where you are providing something (entertainment, I hope) for free, and someone else is making a living off the back of that. It's really just exploitation of a band's keenness, desperation for exposure or gullibility, you choose, but charity gigs are a different thing ........... [/quote] ..Depends who is working for free though.... Multi event charity bills now are often run by an events team... and they aren't often free, IMO, altho whether they want you to know that is another thing ( I get it is a whole load of work, of course,) and neither are the various venders on site, or security, but somehow the bands are... why.. ?? Because they will do it for free... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 It's a horrible scummy US system that is leaking in over here. If your band are worth hearing, they're worth paying. Bands are not some commodity that should be traded. We have a full price. We have a bottom price below which none of us consider our effort balances out economically. We will do freebies when we consider it worth while to us all. Playing in a venue who really don't want you, just want the place with people in it is unrewarding and just something we won't ever do. We get loads of enquiries from our web site and when they say we're expensive, they often say their budget is maybe 20% of what we quote. It's unrealistic, but understandable. To be asked to do it for nothing stinks of exploitation. If you want to do the gig, that's fine, but remember that that client is NEVER EVER going to pay you the going rate in the future. You played for marbles once, and they'll assume you will do this all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='paulears' timestamp='1408981538' post='2535189']It's a horrible scummy US system that is leaking in over here. If your band are worth hearing, they're worth paying...[/quote] A brass band playing in the park..? Worth hearing..? Probably. Worth paying..? Perhaps, but the bandsmen don't see it that way. They play for the love of creating great music and offering it to the public. Is that the 'horrible scummy US system that is leaking in'..? Maybe it's rather the ethos that, if someone, somewhere, is getting a slice of pie, we'll get ours, too..? Whatever happened to generosity, or altruism, or gratuity..? No place for folks with differing sets of values..? That's not a world I'll be promoting any time soon. Some people make love for free. Some get paid for it. Each will choose his/her own camp. [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Sure, a set fee for the type of work based on hours taken to and from the house. And parties/weddings below a certain point are not worth it so best to walk away. Another post in 'How as your gig' illustrates this pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1408982463' post='2535199'] A brass band playing in the park..? Worth hearing..? Probably. Worth paying..? Perhaps, but the bandsmen don't see it that way. They play for the love of creating great music and offering it to the public. Is that the 'horrible scummy US system that is leaking in'..? Maybe it's rather the ethos that, if someone, somewhere, is getting a slice of pie, we'll get ours, too..? Whatever happened to generosity, or altruism, or gratuity..? No place for folks with differing sets of values..? That's not a world I'll be promoting any time soon. ......................... [/quote] When the venue publishes it figures for the day..and how much everyone concerned contributed AND if on the payroll, earned, then I'll take the effort seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1408981126' post='2535184'] ..Depends who is working for free though.... Multi event charity bills now are often run by an events team... and they aren't often free, IMO, altho whether they want you to know that is another thing ( I get it is a whole load of work, of course,) and neither are the various venders on site, or security, but somehow the bands are... why.. ?? Because they will do it for free... [/quote] Yes, but the point still stands: if you are willing to play for free and donate your time and effort that's your decision. They could do the same, but perhaps they don't choose to. That says as much about them as it does about you. We played a charity festival type event this year where we got paid, as did the security etc. and the profits went to a nominated charity, and a small local fundraiser for a hospice charity yesterday for free where the pub fronted the cost of the stage, PA etc and a hog roast and event t-shirts that the sale proceeds went to the charity. They kept the bar takings to cover the costs. It was a great day and we really enjoyed it. On the other hand you have hmm, Live Aid (contentious point alert) where a lot of money was raised, but I'm sure a lot of money was made, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 If you give away your 'worth' then you are spreading the problem. If band ABC play for free, then the venue expect XYZ to do the same, and it's a downwards spiral. I liked the comment where security people at the venue get paid, and so do the bar staff. I like the musicians union stance on charity work. You get paid the same as if it was a normal gig. when you get the money, you can, if you wish, give it to charity - and many do. The point, however, is that you get paid for working. Working for free, and bringing your mates along is just you lining somebody else's pockets - who's making the money? Not the musicians. It devalues what we do. Doing a gig at a posh venue and being charged for food really gets me too - especially when they charge the band the same as the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 It's pretty straightforward, really. If there's no money in playing a particular venue it's a simple choice whether to accept that condition or go somewhere else. Fin. The continuing problem is that - at a certain level of the market - occasional promoters expect hobby bands to 'bring a following' while hobby bands expect the venue to provide the audience. We know in our hearts this is seldom going to happen yet we persist in the delusion. The expectation that a venue will magically fill itself is a triumph of cognitive dissonance. Anyway, there must be a LandlordChat somewhere on the web. As might a Victorian explorer I shall set forth to scout the issue from the other perspective; if I return I shall present a report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='paulears' timestamp='1408983913' post='2535221'] If you give away your 'worth' then you are spreading the problem. If band ABC play for free, then the venue expect XYZ to do the same, and it's a downwards spiral. I liked the comment where security people at the venue get paid, and so do the bar staff. I like the musicians union stance on charity work. You get paid the same as if it was a normal gig. when you get the money, you can, if you wish, give it to charity - and many do. The point, however, is that you get paid for working. Working for free, and bringing your mates along is just you lining somebody else's pockets - who's making the money? Not the musicians. It devalues what we do. Doing a gig at a posh venue and being charged for food really gets me too - especially when they charge the band the same as the public. [/quote] Being charged for food? If you get a builder in or plumber, or decorator, do you cook their lunch? I mend cars, and might nick the occasional sweetie, but I don't expect to open the boot and find the owner has left me a picnic hamper and a nice bottle of claret! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1408984231' post='2535228']... Anyway, there must be a LandlordChat somewhere on the web. As might a Victorian explorer I shall set forth to scout the issue from the other perspective; if I return I shall present a report. [/quote] Excellent initiative, squire. Take care; it's a cruel world out there. Go easy on the liquid lunches, and see if you can promote a couple of the better bands from here..? If you're not back within a reasonable time we'll send out the Search and Rescue team. [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='paulears' timestamp='1408983913' post='2535221'] I like the musicians union stance on charity work. You get paid the same as if it was a normal gig. when you get the money, you can, if you wish, give it to charity - and many do. The point, however, is that you get paid for working. Working for free, and bringing your mates along is just you lining somebody else's pockets - who's making the money? Not the musicians. It devalues what we do. Doing a gig at a posh venue and being charged for food really gets me too - especially when they charge the band the same as the public. [/quote] If you consider playing in a band as 'work' then I can understand your position. Nobody likes to 'work' for nothing. But what if you don't consider playing in a band as 'work'. What if it is just another form of recreation? Who gets paid for their hobbies? When you go out for a night on the town with your mates, do you expect someone to pay you to enjoy yourself? [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1408982463' post='2535199'] Some people make love for free. Some get paid for it. Each will choose his/her own camp. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I do get this, but we all aspire to be better than others and to get better individually too, don't we? Even if it's a hobby, it would be good to be appreciated. Most of the clients we work with try to save money - that's business, but some just push too far. Some are kind and provide food and even some drinks. Others charge you for water, make you change in a toilet, and make you park the van miles away. The idea of playing in a venue that are taking advantage is what gets me. Play for free for fun but doesn't watching the owner stick cash into the till make you cross? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) [quote name='paulears' timestamp='1408986476' post='2535269'] I do get this, but we all aspire to be better than others ... [size=4] [color=#800080]..? Not me, no sirree..![/color] [/size] [size=4]... [/size][size=4]and to get better individually too, don't we?[/size] [size=4][color=#800080]OK for this part; that's nowt to do with being paid, though, imo...[/color][/size] [size=4]Even if it's a hobby, it would be good to be appreciated.[/size] ...[color=#800080]but not necessarily in financial terms.[/color] Most of the clients we work with try to save money - that's business, but some just push too far. Some are kind and provide food and even some drinks. [color=#800080]That's normal, I'd have thought.[/color] Others charge you for water, make you change in a toilet, and make you park the van miles away. [color=#800080]I wouldn't play places you describe here, paid or not. I wouldn't go see bands there, either.[/color] The idea of playing in a venue that are taking advantage is what gets me. [color=#800080]If we're willing to do the gig, we're not being 'taken advantage of'.[/color] Play for free for fun but doesn't watching the owner stick cash into the till make you cross? [color=#800080]No. I'm not a jealous guy.[/color] [/quote] Edited August 25, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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