flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='paulears' timestamp='1408986476' post='2535269'] I do get this, but we all aspire to be better than others and to get better individually too, don't we? Even if it's a hobby, it would be good to be appreciated. Most of the clients we work with try to save money - that's business, but some just push too far. Some are kind and provide food and even some drinks. Others charge you for water, make you change in a toilet, and make you park the van miles away. The idea of playing in a venue that are taking advantage is what gets me. Play for free for fun but doesn't watching the owner stick cash into the till make you cross? [/quote] Does it make you cross when you go to a pub with no music and watch the LL stick your cash in the till? Or when you go to the cinema? Or play a round of golf? Yesterday, our band spent a very pleasant Sunday afternoon playing for about an hour and the rest of the afternoon watching other musicians. No one had to pay to get in and listen and we didn't have to spend any money on drinks. If I hadn't been playing the chances are that I'd have gone along anyway and had to pay for my own drinks. That seems like a pretty mild form of 'taking advantage' to me, so I guess the answer to your question is 'no'. One advantage of playing for free is that if the venue is crap, and the load in/out is terrible, and the chances of a fight is high, then we don't feel obliged to play there just to make a bit of cash. Likewise, we've played a couple of weddings for friends who have specifically asked for us to play because they'd seen us before, so we were happy for that to be our present to them and there was none of the risk and hassle that seems to be associated with so many wedding functions described elsewhere on BC. I get that you won't play without being paid, and that's absolutely fine by me. There's room for all isn't there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkgod Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) I have been reading this with intrest, sometimes when reading a thread you have to stop yourself from commenting... but this makes me boil enough to comment... Here are my thoughts NEVER PAY TO PLAY... its devaluing live music, and music as a whole All pay to play venues should be boycotted, i think they are taking the pi@@ out of us, and at the end of the night pat you on the back tell you to come back anytime ( but bring more people !) and cant wait to kick you out the door to see what thay have made, i know brewery owned pubs that support live music have a budget set aside for live music TO PAY THE BAND.. they dont even pay for advertising and want you to do that as well. So on a good sat night who gets paid ?? Bar staff .............paid glass collectors...paid manager...........paid doorman...........paid dj.....................paid people selling the beer to the pub... paid music licence...................... paid cleaners............................. paid But musicians who bring in the cash to pay for all this ?? Sod all cus you should be lucky we are letting you play, If you have a good following and can sell tickets you dont need them, you can reclame costs and self promote your band, club together and hire the local town hall or local venue, if you have faith in your band its worth a shot at least once, As all musicians know for an original band product is king, but while trying to get your songs out there if you are a pro musician ( or thinking of becoming one) playing live is an important part of your income i think we should Spread the word, "never pay to play" Edited August 30, 2014 by funkgod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) That's a perfectly fine point of view, but can you really not accept that there are others? And while we're on the subject of [i] "sometimes when reading a thread you have to stop yourself from commenting... but this makes me boil enough to comment...[/i]" what gives you any right to start dictating the choices other people should make? I'm not suggesting you should change your views and start paying to play or playing for free am I? So why start telling me, and others, how to play their music? Edited August 25, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408985197' post='2535246'] If you consider playing in a band as 'work' then I can understand your position. Nobody likes to 'work' for nothing. [/quote] I consider playing 'work'. Totally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I guess that those that make their living from music won't see it as a good thing. If music is your hobby - that is fine. If a venue converts from paying the bands to them playing for free, that's somebodies living that has taken a nosedive. It isn't just music, it's society in general. If people start to get anything for free, it's devalued, and to a degree, worthless. If a hobbyist gardener started offering to do people's gardens in the area for free, what about the people who do that as a job? The American trend for businesses to get their entertainment for nothing is bad news for those who would write down "musician" on a loan form. People download illegal music, because it's perceived as free, and just 'music' - nothing to worry about. Playing for free because you want to do it is fine, but you playing for free INSTEAD of paying the usual bands is bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1408988696' post='2535288'] I consider playing 'work'. Totally. [/quote] Respect, sir; respect. This explains a lot of your point of view; perfectly valid. I don't consider playing to be 'work' (at least, not any more. although I used to...). This may go some way to explaining my point of view, which I hold to be equally valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408987506' post='2535276'] One advantage of playing for free is that if the venue is crap, and the load in/out is terrible, and the chances of a fight is high, then we don't feel obliged to play there just to make a bit of cash. Likewise, we've played a couple of weddings for friends who have specifically asked for us to play because they'd seen us before, so we were happy for that to be our present to them and there was none of the risk and hassle that seems to be associated with so many wedding functions described elsewhere on BC. .......... [/quote] Our rule for mates is that they get 'mates rates' and we have a minimum charge which is double our pub fee. The band member whose mate it is, may well pass on his fee. It is just like a day at work to me..I might enjoy it but I want to be paid. Arriving at a certain time, setting up and carrying the P.A also qualifies me to be paid more than than the others who don't do this. It is all a service for which there is a charge. I guess I don't love doing it as much as I thought. But I'll console myself with the fact that any duff gigs will still pay me. So, no, not sure I like bands working for free. I can't stop them, of course, but I'll tease them that they couldn't get p**** in a brewery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408985197' post='2535246'] If you consider playing in a band as 'work' then I can understand your position. Nobody likes to 'work' for nothing. But what if you don't consider playing in a band as 'work'. What if it is just another form of recreation? Who gets paid for their hobbies? [/quote] Most hobbies don't involve competing for the same work as pro/semi pros though. That's what I meant earlier when I said that things change once you put yourself in public. There is absolutely nothing wrong with playing for pure enjoyment, but when you take it outside the garage you are entering in to the business side of it, and that side involves money. Think about it this way.....How would you feel if someone offered to do your job for far less money which, in turn, means that your income is potentially affected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408991088' post='2535311'] Most hobbies don't involve competing for the same work as pro/semi pros though. That's what I meant earlier when I said that things change once you put yourself in public. There is absolutely nothing wrong with playing for pure enjoyment, but when you take it outside the garage you are entering in to the business side of it, and that side involves money. Think about it this way.....How would you feel if someone offered to do your job for far less money which, in turn, means that your income is potentially affected? [/quote] Overseas companies have been doing this for years. That's 'competition', or 'market economy'. It seems as if what's sauce for the goose is not to the ganders taste. If someone wants to pay more for your prowess, that's fine. If they prefer to get a (perhaps..?) lesser product for less, why not..? Isn't this just trade..? As I mentioned above, some musicians won't leave home for less than 5 figures. If you (yes, you...) take on a gig for a couple of thousand, aren't you undercutting them..? Where, exactly, is this line in the sand..? Who's going to come up with the definitive figure for playing..? The MU..? The Guv'ment..? The band leader..? The LL..? The pub clientèle..? Do we have to all abide by it..? Edited August 25, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408991088' post='2535311'] Most hobbies don't involve competing for the same work as pro/semi pros though. That's what I meant earlier when I said that things change once you put yourself in public. There is absolutely nothing wrong with playing for pure enjoyment, but when you take it outside the garage you are entering in to the business side of it, and that side involves money. [/quote] Fair point, but I could equally turn it around and suggest that most jobs don't involve in competing with hobbies. But that's the choice that pro/semi pro musicians make, which is fair enough but not to the extent of imposing their preferences on others [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408991088' post='2535311'] Think about it this way.....How would you feel if someone offered to do your job for far less money which, in turn, means that your income is potentially affected? [/quote] I guess I'd have to look for another job in order to maintain my income - which happens all the time doesn't it? Do you wear £400 shoes to help save UK handmade shoe manufacturing or do you wear cheaper imports from the far east? Bespoke suits or off-the-peg from a foreign factory using cheaper labour? And a million other examples . . . . Edit - Dad beat me to it Edited August 25, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1408989409' post='2535298'] Our rule for mates is that they get 'mates rates' and we have a minimum charge which is double our pub fee. The band member whose mate it is, may well pass on his fee. It is just like a day at work to me..I might enjoy it but I want to be paid. Arriving at a certain time, setting up and carrying the P.A also qualifies me to be paid more than than the others who don't do this. It is all a service for which there is a charge. I guess I don't love doing it as much as I thought. But I'll console myself with the fact that any duff gigs will still pay me. [/quote] That makes your position a lot clearer . . . and all power to you in those choices. [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1408989409' post='2535298'] So, no, not sure I like bands working for free. I can't stop them, of course, but I'll tease them that they couldn't get p**** in a brewery [/quote] Well, if we're going to start teasing each other, how come bands playing for a few hundred quid a night in grotty pubs are not good enough to be playing 5000 seat venues with £50 tickets, or even larger venues, or how come they don't have recording contracts with major labels, or how come they're not on the telly every week . . . . . . As I've said - there's room for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I'm for a protection-ist element to a degree as you can outsource anything, pretty much and then where do those in the west work..??? So, to follow on from that, I think we can charge what our market will stand and to a degree that determines our worth. Even tho I don't think we compete with free bands so much, it isn't the free bands so much as the venues themsleves. Bands for free do try and see the bigger picture in that they might think a loss-leader will open another door but if a band said they would do a gig for free, chances are, 95% of the time, I'd think that was their 'worth' Venues might just think that is one cost they don't have to a factor in. What the bands think they get out of that, is less clear, apart from being known to turn up and do it for nothing. I'd be thinking, if this is their business approach, will they even turn up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408996480' post='2535399'] That makes your position a lot clearer . . . and all power to you in those choices. Well, if we're going to start teasing each other, how come bands playing for a few hundred quid a night in grotty pubs are not good enough to be playing 5000 seat venues with £50 tickets, or even larger venues, or how come they don't have recording contracts with major labels, or how come they're not on the telly every week . . . . . . [/quote] If I knew that, I'd have to charge you for the magic formula. But a few serious points.. The reason we don't do too many pubs is exactly because it dilutes our ability to charge ticket prices. When we quote a festival price we may well get the 'I know what you work for in pubs' and they could guess ball park correct. We then say this is a special show .. and if they want a pub band then go and book one. We tend to cost them all the same but aren't allowed to say exactly how much. It doesn't help if we start playing games between them though and sometimes this might cost you when you stick to your prices. Some pub bands never get beyond that thinking so they are always stuck on pub rates plus £100-200 max. Some pub bands think doing a wedding/function for £600 is good money...but in reality, they are the dates you'd want to avoid. IMO. I've asked some of the regarded local pub bands if they would share a bill at a very nice venue for decent money but they'd have to sell 100 tickets. The venue will hold 350 plus so potentially the band split around £2k after exes but it will cost £1500 upfront to put on. I've had no takers and agree it can be a lot of stress What makes a band worth £5k... I really don't know but I admire the business plan of those who can get it. One of the very best drawing bands round here sell-out and get very good money. They don't give half the door tickets away like others have been known to do... just to claim a 'sell-out' but they have their product and they do well enough. They wouldn't play the pub circuit as they'd get blown away by a lot of the bands on them and that is sensible of them but they will pick up gigs that are all round worth doing IMO. What makes one band 'worth' more than another is a fascinating subject...but 'worth' is not free. IMHO. Edited August 25, 2014 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Our drummer has booked us for a holloween gig, the venue want us to sell tickets for £5 and we get half (I think as I wasnt listening fully), im happy to do the gig as its a big venue and he reckons he has 70 people from his work coming, that £58 each as a trio, its 30 miles away near his work. I have already made it clear I wont sell a single ticket. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Protectionism means you end up paying more for everything, so you'd probably end up being worse off even if you can double your band fees. Some 'bands for free' might be doing it for some bigger picture and a loss-leader on their way to multi-million pound stardom, but not me. I can think of little worse than being dragged from anonymous hotel room to anonymous hotel room to play the same songs night after night. Might be alright when you get to being a Rolling Stone and can call the shots but otherwise it's not something I would choose. No wonder so many 'stars' end up doing drugs and the like - the boredom must be pretty intense. But each to their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 But that is why it is work. Getting up every day to catch the tour bus at 0930 for a drive across Germany or wherever is exactly that after a few days... gruelling work and a bloody long day sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Agreed. I'd want to be paid for that sort of work as well - and probably a lot more than the going rate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 My band was asked to 'Pay to play' for a support slot for Alabama 3 in some London 'Rock Pub'. A pub's a pub as far as I'm concerned. We told them we were washing our hair that particular night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krysbass Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I ended my one and only foray into the world of original bands because of pay-to-play venues. By the time fuel and exorbitant parking charges in Manchester's Northern Quarter were paid; we were running the band at a hefty loss and I left because of it. A shame - because musically I'd been loving it. Back playing covers now and at least I now know that I've found my niche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropzone Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 IMHO As it is a free market economy and as part of the contract you agree you may or may not choose to play for free then you are paid what you think you are worth for that event. If you think you are worth £1,000 go for it it, if you get it, your worth it. If you don't your not (for that event). Many bands play for free or pay to play as a potential investment for their future. We get paid ok but we have a good product and a dedicated fan base that we have worked on. There has to be room for all as without an illegal cartel there is no realistic other option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 [quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1409056939' post='2535844'] Many bands play for free or pay to play as a potential investment for their future. [/quote] I wonder what 'the future' means for BCers here who play in bands (or even if they don't at the moment)? What do people see as their future in the world of music and how much planning do people really put into it all? I've laid my cards on the table as a pure hobbyist band member with no aspirations of making any money out of my playing, never mind earning a comfortable ( or uncomfortable! ) living out of it. My motivation is simply playing for the sheer pleasure of it. What other motivations are out there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 self promotion/ego women and money... that is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 No pay = no play as far as I'm concerned. You can't eat hope, you can't fill your petrol tank with promises, you can't clothe yourself with 'exposure'. We have a target price and a bottom price. As a result we don't play at half of the pubs in our local area. The ones we do play at are the pubs who regularly put on good quality bands, and are usually full of punters who go there for the decent music. The places we don't play at tend to be the 'transition' pubs who can't hold a crowd because they just go in there to get tanked up cheaply before going on to somewhere else. The general principle being if you pay peanuts expect monkeys, and we 'ain't no monkeys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1408970957' post='2535019'] Not really true . . . Bands happy to play for free and helping themselves You may think that's a bad thing because it affects bands trying to earn money, but is it really any different to a shop that sells stuff cheaper than its competitors? We have laws against cartels for a reason don't we? [/quote] but you wouldnt open up a shop and give it away for free would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogHammer Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 Thanks for all the replies! Yes I agree this pay to play garbage is definitely a No Go for us. Playing a gig for free is one thing, paying to play is just silly. Just a massive downer that these promoters can actually get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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