Advice on amp for newbie

[smurfitt]

Hi,
I'm a newbie, just joined a band and looking to get something more substantial to go alongside drummer & 2 guitarists who both have AVT275's (150w each) on volume 3. Playing rock & indie covers but nothing heavy and not too loud.
On a tight budget and will be pushing it to afford the £500 mark unless I can trade in some gear inpx.
Aslo, need something practical to transport so can't have 2 cabs. Combo would be preferable but will heed advice of those more knowledgeable:
So here is the choice:
[b]New[/b][u][/u]
Ashdown Mag300 head: £237
Ashdown Mag 410T (307rms) combo: £425
Ashdown 410 cab: £239
Laney RB9 (300rms) head: £179
Laney RB410 cab: £189
Laney RB7 kickback (300rms) combo: £305
Crate BT410 cab: £249
Hughes & Kettner quantum combo 421(285rms): £510
Roland D bass 210 (400w): £520
Hartke VX410 cab: £245

Used:
Ampeg BA500 combo: £550
Hartke HA3000 plus VX410 cab: £320

Feedback please.

[Dood]

This is a reviews forum mate.. I'll move you to the amps and cabs forum, as you'll get a better response.

[The Funk]

I was very unexpectedly impressed by a Crate combo I went through when I was trying something else. Decent equipment. Can't vouch for how loud it goes though.

Edited July 2, 2007 by The Funk

[The Burpster]

If the Roland D bass suits your sound I can recommend it... Good solid dependable combo.

If I hadnt wanted a tube pre-amp I would DEFINATELY have one. (rather than the 210 you could try the 115 as a slighty cheaper but equally as capable option!)

[smurfitt]

Went into Sound Control and the so called bass expert (have they really got any experts?) told me not to touch Roland D Bass 210 as it was muddy with no clarity. Said Ashdown Mag 300 head would be good through ampeg 410 cab as Ashdown speakers tend to get hot and ruins the sound. But that set up is outta the price range I can afford. He also said the Line 6 range was good, Crate was rubbish and Peavey combo very good (but they didn't have any in stock).
Advised I should have a minimum of 600w as guitarists both have 150w combos. However, as I said in my original post: we are not a loud or heavy rock band and guitarists volume never exceeds level 3.
Comments please.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='smurfitt' post='26026' date='Jul 2 2007, 01:51 PM']Went into Sound Control and the so called bass expert (have they really got any experts?)...[/quote]

You're right to question that, I've never been into a Sound Control where they had half a clue let alone one where they could be completely trusted to advise you correctly.

[quote name='smurfitt' post='26026' date='Jul 2 2007, 01:51 PM']Advised I should have a minimum of 600w as guitarists both have 150w combos. However, as I said in my original post: we are not a loud or heavy rock band and guitarists volume never exceeds level 3.
Comments please.[/quote]

The various rules of thumb about guitarist watts times two or four or whatever are very rough. If your guitarists were using every last watt from their 150W combos you would not be able to hear your drummer or vocalist at all. I get the impression that you'll be well served by a few hundred watts into a 2x10" or 1x15". If you're willing to carry a 4x10" then that'll be usefully louder but possibly overkill. The D-Bass combos go louder than they should for their ratings - try one before you write them off.

Peavey gear tends to be loud, reliable and excellent value for money. Rarely light but it'll outlast much more expensive gear and there's usually plenty of used stuff about.

Alex

[The Burpster]

Smurfff, My advice for whats its worth is "make your own mind up", I'm sure there are good shops out there, but I am yet to find one (and believe me I have trouble leaving anywhere without something shiny in my hand).

As £500 is going to be a substantial investment for you, take your bass and lead to a couple of places, plug in and try them.

The advice seems a bit [i]"we havent got any of what you want, and I dont like your choice anyway"[/i] advice to me, and as for the c**P about 600w because your 2x150w guitar amps???? Does he really expect you not to question that? of course you dont need that amount of power. My Roland 30X cube kept up with a drummer and 100w valve guitar amp..... Its all about balance when you are playing together, and getting the sound right.

A D-bass will certainly have enough OOOoooomph for what your doing, and as to the tone? that depends entirely on what bass, strings ,lead, effects, etc that you play........

I'm not saying that the D-bass will be exactly what you need..... you need to make up your own mind! But certainly dont write it off until you've played through one!

Why on earth he is dissing some very good gear (Ashdown speakers are a bit sparkly for me but very good, Crate have some knockers but most say they are very good) ........ I honestly have no idea.........

You make up your own mind as to his expertese, but based on what you've said here, I would just walk out the shop.......

[The Funk]

[url="http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/400rb-iv--210/8247"]This option probably has to go on your list to try out[/url]

[smurfitt]

I did walk out of the shop!
Have since been to The Music Shop and tried out a Laney 300rms head with compact 410 cab. No pressure to buy, sounded fine, but as I was not in a band situation don't know what it would be like.
Spoke to another bassist about the Roland D Bass 210 who said it is a nice amp but the 400w is shared between the 2 x 10 speakers and horn so not as powerful as it seems!
Most bassists seem happy with the Trace Elliott 715X but my dosh can't stretch that far at the mo. I sit worth me saving a bit more to get one?
I know it's all about personal preference but I just want some feedback on the experience of others with these amps.
Cheers.

[lukeward2004]

Find yourself a second hand Hartle 410XL cab and a 3500 head, and you are well sorted mate.

[john_the_bass]

if you are going to get one from a shop and you can wave cash under the noses of those selling the gear, you should be able to haggle a discount out of em which should allow you to look at slightly dearer gear with an objective to bring your price down a bit

i would anyway

[bass_ferret]

Not used any of the gear you are asking about but I know a lot of guys on here dont rate Ashdown Mags.

Remember that a lot of combos dont put out their rated power unless an extension is used.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='smurfitt' post='26050' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:48 PM']Spoke to another bassist about the Roland D Bass 210 who said it is a nice amp but the 400w is shared between the 2 x 10 speakers and horn...[/quote]

I'd like to see a 2x10" + horn combo where the power isn't shared between the three drivers, that would be an impressive trick!

Seriously though, the D-Bass uses separate amps for each woofer due to the speaker control circuitry being independant for each speaker (it compares the actual motion of the cone to the desired cone motion and then adjusts the input signal to compensate) plus a separate tweeter amp like the GK gear (allowing clean highs even when you're overdriving the lows for extra punch).

Alex

[The Funk]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1583"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1583[/url] - There you go, get that. £350.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='The Funk' post='26094' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:18 PM'][url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1583"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1583[/url] - There you go, get that. £350.[/quote]

Agreed!

Alex

[Tee]

I own and use an Ampeg BA500 (350Watts 2x10, 500Watts with an extension cabinet)



It's essentially an SVT 350H with a 2x10. A bit bulky to cart around, but it has removable wheels. Worth the hassle once you plug in on stage though.

[smurfitt]

So if I buy a 300w 115 Trace Elliot combo, what output am I gonna get?
And if I buy a Ashdown ABM C115 300, what output will I get?
WTF don't manufacturers put exactly what output you are gonna have instead of watts ohms etc etc.
What's the point of having 300w of power if the 15" speaker can't handle it?


[quote name='bass_ferret' post='26068' date='Jul 2 2007, 03:28 PM']Not used any of the gear you are asking about but I know a lot of guys on here dont rate Ashdown Mags.

Remember that a lot of combos dont put out their rated power unless an extension is used.[/quote]

[smurfitt]

That would be an easy remedy my firend but I can't transport 2 cabs!


[quote name='BlockInlayMan' post='26100' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:45 PM']I own and use an Ampeg BA500 (350Watts 2x10, 500Watts with an extension cabinet)



It's essentially an SVT 350H with a 2x10. A bit bulky to cart around, but it has removable wheels. Worth the hassle once you plug in on stage though.[/quote]

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='smurfitt' post='25912' date='Jul 2 2007, 11:12 AM']need something practical to transport so can't have 2 cabs. Combo would be preferable[/quote]
Separates are generally easier to carry as the weight's split between two things. On a big combo, you lifting the whole lot at once. Also you can upgrade the head or cab while keeping the other bit.

If you've only got room for one cab - check out the Warwick cab range. Great bang for your buck. Most now come as 4-ohm versions for same price as 8-ohm, meaning they run at full power with just one cab. Been very pleased with mine so far.

Hartke stuff's good too, as is 2nd hand Trace Elliot. Ashdown too muddy for my ears - but try lots and trust your own!

Edited July 2, 2007 by stingrayfan

[Tee]

[quote name='smurfitt' post='26102' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:52 PM']That would be an easy remedy my firend but I can't transport 2 cabs![/quote]


I don't use an extension cab, just as is. Really not neccessary.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='smurfitt' post='26101' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:50 PM']So if I buy a 300w 115 Trace Elliot combo, what output am I gonna get?
And if I buy a Ashdown ABM C115 300, what output will I get?
WTF don't manufacturers put exactly what output you are gonna have instead of watts ohms etc etc.
What's the point of having 300w of power if the 15" speaker can't handle it?[/quote]

This is where it all gets rather complicated. We don't hear electrical watts, we hear Sound Pressure Level (SPL) which is measured in dB (technically referenced off pressure in millibars).

The relationship between electrical watts and SPL can be simplified as:

dB SPL = 10*LOG(amp power) + (speaker sensitivity)

Speaker sensitivity is measured in dB and is a measure of the dB SPL from a speaker at 1m distance with 2.83V input (which equals 1W into 8 ohms) and this varies with frequency.

If manufacturers quoted honest specs then you could do fairly accurate comparisons of how loud a given rig will be. Unfortunately as the sensitivity specs tend to be grossly overstated as do the frequency response specs (so the sensitivity in the lows - where it really matters - is far worse than claimed). Furthermore few bass speakers can accept anywhere full power without distorting and even those that can suffer from power compression so real output is less than calculated output.

And that's just SPL! Once you figure in the human ear's poor bass sensitivity and start thinking in Phons rather than pure SPL you see that your tone and EQ often matters more to how loud you are than how much power you have.

The simple answer is that a few hundred watts into a 15" or 2x10" will be enough in less loud bands though you may have to forfeit your ideal sound to get a sound that can actually be heard (more midrange, less bottom).

No bassist will ever win a volume war with a typical guitarist - but if everyone plays together, instead of competing to be heard the most, then you can get away with remarkably small bass rigs.

Alex

[warwickhunt]

SoundControl may well be sh*te (though I'd hasten to add I've spoken to a couple of sensible souls in the Newcastle branch) but so are many retail outlets!

That aside, if SC are still doing the Ashdown Superfly head @ £199, that could be an option. Couple that with a 4 ohm cab and you'll have 250 watts, with the capability of adding a 2nd cab without fear of frying your amp. Saying that much (check first) of the Peavey gear can go down to 2 ohms to and as stated it is pretty bombproof and underrated.

[richy316]

I have to agree with Stingrayfan, the Warwick gear is pretty good. Though it is seen on most stages with metal or soul/funk bands with a bit of time tweaking your sound its definitely got value for money.

Pick up a 4x10 WCA411 4ohm cab which can handle 600w and add a Profet 3.2 or if you can find a secondhand Profet4 you'll have a setup that would cut through the mix of drums and 2 marshall combos with ease.

Edited July 2, 2007 by richy316

[alexclaber]

Get this!

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=45&st=0&gopid=24353&#entry24353"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...amp;#entry24353[/url]

£375 and you're sorted. Just use the combo most of the time - take the extension cab for louder gigs.

Alex

[mr pablo]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='26262' date='Jul 2 2007, 10:22 PM']Get this!

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=45&st=0&gopid=24353&#entry24353"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...amp;#entry24353[/url]

£375 and you're sorted. Just use the combo most of the time - take the extension cab for louder gigs.

Alex[/quote]

+1 looks a bit of a bargain if you ask me