Fender Precision Lyte body refinish

[Andyjr1515]

As I mentioned in my recent Westone Pantera thread, the other item Paul S wanted me to have a look at was a Fender Precision Lyte body that had been refinished in the past but the lacquer had crazed badly.

I generally don't do spray paint jobs - there are much more talented guys than me around - but Paul was willing to let me go the unconventional wipe-on finishing, and being black, I reckoned that even I could get an evenly-applied underlying paint coat underneath it. Of course, gloss black is one of the more challenging ones in that it shows up EVERY blemish.

I did point out to Paul, before I started on it, that the crazed lacquer on it was something that some bass and guitar players would pay good money for ... maybe not intended but pretty cool nonetheless:






Anyway, to continue with a strip and recoat was Paul's decision so I started with sanding, to see how tough it was.

Here was the first surprise - the lacquer came off very easily..but the black paint underneath...

As I sanded it, the heat generated melted the black and it just gummed up the sandpaper making it feel like trying to sand melted tar. After a considerable time, I had got no further than this:




I needed a Plan B. The trouble with sanding difficult finishes is that it is too easy to end up sanding down the exposed wood while you are still trying to get through the tough outer stuff .

So out came my trusty heatgun:




Brilliant - the black coating came off like a slightly rubbery cellophane wrapper


It didn't take too long before I was getting down to the wood...





I'll post the rest shortly - grain and bump fills, primer & black spray then the long (as it turned out) process of trying to get a half-decent varnish and final polish!!!

Thanks for looking

Andy

[hamfist]

Cool. Good luck !

[Andyjr1515]

The next task was filling the grain and dents/ knocks that the well used bass had suffered over the years. I tend to use stainableTimbermate decorators filler - it does absorb stain well if you are doing a trans or clear finish and you can water it down to almost nothing and it still works, although for this job it does dry a bit harder than I would like. If I do another one, I might give Rustins Grain Filler a whirl.

That was left overnight to dry, sanded back down to the wood and then, taking advantage of a dry windless afternoon, primed with standard grey Rust-oleum grey surface primer from Homebase. Note the high tech 'spray 360 degrees' rig




I was expecting to need to do a few coats, then sand down, then a few more but it went on very smoothly with no runs or dips. After the requisite time, on went a number of coats of black Rust-oleum 'Painters Touch' Gloss Black - also from Homebase.





Again, these went on very well. I don't recall how many coats - but just over a can's worth using the 'two quick coats, dry, two quick coats, etc,' approach. The objective here was to build enough thickness to be able to fully flatten it without breaking through the black into the primer.




The weather kept still and dry long enough to do that outdoor bit. The way I finish varnish can be all done indoors - the way I do it has its pro's and con's which I will cover in the next post, but being able to do it indoors with nothing more sophisticated than a jam jar and a microfibre cloth or two is definitely one of the big pro's.

Thanks for looking

Andy

Edited August 28, 2014 by Andyjr1515

[Paul S]

Can't wait for the next installment... wait - it's my bass! [size=4] [/size][size=4] Great to see the full diary.[/size]

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1409237765' post='2537851']
Can't wait for the next installment... wait - it's my bass! Great to see the full diary.
[/quote]
As the thread develops, you'll probably figure why it took a few weeks longer than estimated! (Paul was VERY patient, by the way)

[Andyjr1515]

So, onto my slightly unconventional finishing method - and this was one of the topics as Paul and I explored to decide whether this was a good project to come my way in the first place.

As I will illustrate next (using another recent project where I remembered to take photos!) I use good old Ronseal Hardglaze, thinned with white spirits and applied with a cloth...yes, I know...

The reason I do it that way is:[list]
[*]I don't have the room or facilities to spray other than small ad-hoc tasks in the back garden
[*]It produces a better finish than you would expect
[*]For the kind of things I generally do (figured wood or veneers) it is fine
[/list]
The reason we had the discussion is because I generally don't do solid colours & of all of them, gloss black is one of the most difficult from the varnishing point of view. Paul was happy to take the chance and I was happy enough to try it.

For those who might be interested, I'll illustrate the method using the other project, then next thread go through the practical easy bits and challenges on the Precision.

This is from another forum (TheFretboard) which had a summer challenge to buy an entry level 6-string kit and 'do something' with it. I plumbed for the offset (Jazzmaster-like) kit.

I veneered the top, left the sides and back and stained it with fountain pen ink. Next came the varnishing. The kit is:



Basically - tin of hardglaze, white spririts, jam jar to mix those two, microfibre cloths (£2-3 for 4 in Sainsbury's/Homebase), rubber gloves.

I added one more thing - a 'glass cleaning' micro fibrecloth to use as a dust catching 'tack rag':




If you have not used microfibre cloths yet, they are a FABULOUS invention. Provided you [u] don't cut them[/u] they are completely lint-free and dustless - much more so than even a pretty well cleaned lacquer brush.

The varnish is thinned by around 30% (up to 50% towards the end) and then applied in smooth passes, just slightly overlapping:



The white spirit makes it spread more easily, and dry more quickly. Generally you can get two coats in a day and by the morning, it is dry enough to 1000 grit sand (if necessary) ready for the next two coats. For one of my veneer jobs, I would do this for a week or so, then 1000 wet n dry (used wet), to flatten it, then 2000 wet 'n dry (used wet) to prepare the final surface, then go to 50% white spirits, and wipe a couple of final coats for the final varnish.

This is the guitar above after the final coat and before any final polishing (which often isn't necessary):







(the funny round shapes are reflections of cupboard handles)

For this one, with the figuring hiding any inconsistencies, I didn't even need to polish it.

By the way, this is how it came out - not bad for something that started out as a £95.00 all inclusive kit!




However, gloss black was going to need a bit more final finishing - that's where the extra challenges came...

The above process alone got me this far:







Next post: 'the additional challenges, resolution and final result'

[Andyjr1515]

So, the additional challenges.

To set the scene - this is the bit that takes the time (on pretty much all types of finish). Basically, you have to wait until the coating is completely dry and hard before applying the final burnishing / de dust bugging / polishing. For the varnish I use, that is at least 2 weeks.

For my usual finishes, I would simply use brown paper after this period to take any minor nibs off, then use autoglym car polish for the final shine.

However, as this was gloss black, I thought I would be a smart-a**e and do it as the sprayers would (spraying leaves the little bobbles that, therefore, as a necessity need the following extra steps):[list]
[*]flatten with 2000 grit wet 'n dry used wet
[*]polish with auto cutting polish applied with a powered sponge
[*]final polish with, eg, Carnuba wax
[/list]
As soon as I did step 1, I suspected there might a problem - although the surface was completely flat and smooth, visually there were very slight shadings (remember - this is just the clear varnish I was burnishing)

I hoped it would just polish out with the sponge and cutting polish...it didn't...it got worse. While it was OK-ish, it wasn't as good as I'd started with after just varnishing.

So now I had a problem. I knew that I was going to have to given it another 'final coat' of varnish but I also knew that I now had a body that had auto polish all over it! (and no - they really, really, don't go together).

First try was to wipe repeatedly with meths, scrape out any polish that may have accumulated in screw-holes, etc, then sand all over with 1000 and 2000 grit and varnish.

The polish still reacted!




In some areas, the varnish 'parted', leaving what look like brush marks. In other areas, there were 'fisheyes', where the varnish was repelled round a tiny dot of contamination leaving a small pock-mark.

At this stage, I knew I was going to have to take the varnish right down past any polish layer and do the finishing coats again

Hence the delay, because that meant waiting a further 2 weeks for it all to harden before attempting to re-polish.

So, after this additional wait, it was then:[list]
[*]600 grit, then 1000, then 2000.
[*]Re-varnish 2-3 coats with 30% white spirits
[*]2000 grit, used wet
[*]Final 2 coats with 50% white spirits
[*]Wait 2 weeks
[*]Avoid trying to be a smart-a**e a second time
[*]Gentle final run over with brown wrapping paper
[*]Polish with Meguire's Carnuba Wax polish
[/list]
It came out how I'd hoped it would.







I'm sure Paul S will give his own feedback (hit us with it, Paul...I can take the punishment!).

My own view is that I still say that this method will never match a professional spray job, but it gets extremely close...and for most applications, given the ease and convenience, is quite good enough. I will experiment whether the aborted burnishing was characteristic of the method or just a quirk. If it is the latter, then with burnishing and final polishing, it could absolutely match a decent spray job. I'll let you know the results. Spray would be nevertheless be quicker, but not if you have to wait for a dry, windless, insect-less, pollen-less weekend or light evenings day

Thanks for looking

Andy

Edited August 30, 2014 by Andyjr1515

[Evil Undead]

Nice I've always been a fan of your stuff Andy!

[Andyjr1515]

Evil Undead!!! Great to hear from you

Thanks

Andy

[Paul S]

Well, Andy, as with the headstock, I couldn't be more pleased with the job. I am almost ashamed to stick the old hardware back on as it will make the bass look a bit shabby compared to the paint finish, which is a deep piano black gloss. When I do, I'll stick some pics on the thread just to complete the circle.

Thanks again, Andy - I really can't praise your work highly enough.

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1409411840' post='2539487']
Well, Andy, as with the headstock, I couldn't be more pleased with the job. I am almost ashamed to stick the old hardware back on as it will make the bass look a bit shabby compared to the paint finish, which is a deep piano black gloss. When I do, I'll stick some pics on the thread just to complete the circle.

Thanks again, Andy - I really can't praise your work highly enough.
[/quote]

Thanks Paul

(double phew!!)

Andy

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Evil Undead' timestamp='1409406668' post='2539414']
Nice I've always been a fan of your stuff Andy!
[/quote]

Hi again, Evil Undead

I don't know if you've also seen the recent Westone thread I also did for Paul. Thought about you when I was working on it - just your kind of bass...top class.

Andy

[Evil Undead]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1409435389' post='2539766']


Hi again, Evil Undead

I don't know if you've also seen the recent Westone thread I also did for Paul. Thought about you when I was working on it - just your kind of bass...top class.

Andy
[/quote]

I haven't but I'm off to investigate

[hamfist]

Nice job Andy. I really appreciate you running through your method so methodically for us.

[Paul S]

Just finished putting it back together. It really looks the mutts! And, with a bit of judicious soldering, I managed to cure the slight grounding problem it had always had before - this is fitted with a U Retro preamp and I have found the East preamps need the extra mile with grounding. 7lbs of Fender's finest now looking as it should. Sounds amazing, too! Thanks for a brilliant job, Andy. Literally!

[attachment=171050:lyte1.jpg][attachment=171051:lyte2.jpg][attachment=171052:lyte3.jpg][attachment=171053:lyte4.jpg][attachment=171054:lyte5.jpg][attachment=171055:lyte6.jpg][attachment=171056:lyte7.jpg]

Edit - I also managed to put my first dink in the paint, carrying it back upstairs after taking the pics! Nothing serious, but nice to get that out the way now

Edited September 6, 2014 by Paul S

[Paul S]

Here's a thought - should I ask Andy to do the headstock to match? It should have a matching headstock, really, but I changed it to natural when I made my clumsy attempt at a re-fin.

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1410006905' post='2545334']
Just finished putting it back together. It really looks the mutts! And, with a bit of judicious soldering, I managed to cure the slight grounding problem it had always had before - this is fitted with a U Retro preamp and I have found the East preamps need the extra mile with grounding. 7lbs of Fender's finest now looking as it should. Sounds amazing, too! Thanks for a brilliant job, Andy. Literally!

[attachment=171050:lyte1.jpg][attachment=171051:lyte2.jpg][attachment=171052:lyte3.jpg][attachment=171053:lyte4.jpg][attachment=171054:lyte5.jpg][attachment=171055:lyte6.jpg][attachment=171056:lyte7.jpg]

Edit - I also managed to put my first dink in the paint, carrying it back upstairs after taking the pics! Nothing serious, but nice to get that out the way now
[/quote]

That looks STUPENDOUS, Paul

Really, really pleased

Andy

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1410007282' post='2545336']
Here's a thought - should I ask Andy to do the headstock to match? It should have a matching headstock, really, but I changed it to natural when I made my clumsy attempt at a re-fin.
[/quote]
I would play it a bit first...I kept it away from you a fair while last time

So is that a home applied decal? Nothing clumsy about that if it's a re-fin! It looks original.

Andy

Edited September 6, 2014 by Andyjr1515

[thefyst]

This is the first time ive come across using brown paper for polishing, the stuff ive got has a rough and a smooth side? i take it you use the smooth side?

very interested in your ink staining method aswell.

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='thefyst' timestamp='1410260591' post='2547533']
This is the first time ive come across using brown paper for polishing, the stuff ive got has a rough and a smooth side? i take it you use the smooth side?

very interested in your ink staining method aswell.
[/quote]

Hi, thefyst

Thanks for the feedback!

Actually it's the rough side The varnish or lacquer has to be properly hardened, otherwise bits of dust can get caught underneath the paper and leave micro-scratches, but it acts like the old-fashioned 'flour paper' that decorators used to use. Clearly you can also use very very fine polishing pads (the kind of stuff wifes / girlfriends/daughters use for polishing their nails) but brown paper works fine - it has the fibrous surface but it is only that - soft wood fibre - so is inherently softer than a hardened varnish.

Ref ink, it has its own unique set of tips and tricks but I find it much easier to use than many stains and there is a HUGE rand of colours (and its dirt cheap!) I used Diamine inks last time - a british company, no less. This home built SG tribute used red calligraphy ink and Ronseal varnish - nothing else:



It's become our main bassist's favourite gigging guitar.

Yes I know - he's a bassist, but it gives me a chance to play the bass I built for him too, a tribute to Warwick's wonderful Thumb 4 NT Fretless...




I was really pleased (and relieved - it was expensive wood if I'd cocked it!) with how both of them came out...

Thanks again for your interest.

Andy

[thefyst]

Would an ink stain like that work okay on one of those cheap mahogany bodies you get in kits? ...I fancy having a go myself

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='thefyst' timestamp='1410343615' post='2548277']
Would an ink stain like that work okay on one of those cheap mahogany bodies you get in kits? ...I fancy having a go myself
[/quote]
Hi thfyst
I've PM'd you ref the Veneering question. For staining either veneers or solid wood, it really needs to be light woods to show the colour. Maple, ash, alder, poplar, myrtle etc are all good candidates. Mahogany usually just needs varnishing, as does walnut. With something like oak, you could darken it with wood stain but ink really only comes into it's own against a nice bright background.
Hope this helps

Andy

[Sharkfinger]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1410007282' post='2545336']
Here's a thought - should I ask Andy to do the headstock to match? It should have a matching headstock, really, but I changed it to natural when I made my clumsy attempt at a re-fin.
[/quote]

Probably a bit too late but keep an eye on ebay. The necks for these frequently come up and IIRC, they did black ones as well. They all had matching headstocks. Getting decals and redoing the 'Lyte' writing on the headstock will be a pain, I imagine.

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Sharkfinger' timestamp='1412771801' post='2571830']
Probably a bit too late but keep an eye on ebay. The necks for these frequently come up and IIRC, they did black ones as well. They all had matching headstocks. Getting decals and redoing the 'Lyte' writing on the headstock will be a pain, I imagine.
[/quote]

It's OK I didn't take Paul's bait that time...I, too, was bothered by the potential loss of the logo.

Didn't know they did black necks - a good lead from Sharkfinger, Paul?

Andy

Edited October 8, 2014 by Andyjr1515

[Sharkfinger]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1412775256' post='2571902']
It's OK I didn't take Paul's bait that time...I, too, was bothered by the potential loss of the logo.

Didn't know they did black necks - a good lead from Sharkfinger, Paul?

Andy
[/quote]

Well, they did a black finish with a matching headstock to be precise. Here's the thing: have only seen 'black sparkle' so far. YMMV.