Using a 210 with a 410

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1409516989' post='2540473']
No, I was in no way suggesting that a load of less than manufacturers spec is 'safe', only that, whilst remaining above minimum load, any extra heat will not, in the reasonable life of an amp, be a factor of shortening that life.
Do not run any amp at less than makers spec, at the risk of releasing the 'magic smoke'..!
[/quote]

That's what I was referring to, running a 4 ohm amp at 2.6 ohm.
I know we've debated running at max ohms to get max watts before. Good if you're using cabs that's are gonna benefit from it, not so if you're only gaining a couple of db.
Extra heat will most likely shorten the life. More current going through the components speeds up the wear & tear process (just like with anything).

Edited August 31, 2014 by xgsjx

[Dad3353]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1409518344' post='2540496']...Extra heat will most likely shorten the life. More current going through the components speeds up the wear & tear process (just like with anything).
[/quote]

Yes, that's what I don't quite follow. Shortening the life from 6 centuries to a mere 5 doesn't seem like much of an issue to me. How much 'shortening' actually takes place, does anyone know, or is this just a legend..? Are there any 'real-life' figures available..? I've never seen any, but I'm open...

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1409519013' post='2540503']
Yes, that's what I don't quite follow. Shortening the life from 6 centuries to a mere 5 doesn't seem like much of an issue to me. How much 'shortening' actually takes place, does anyone know, or is this just a legend..? Are there any 'real-life' figures available..? I've never seen any, but I'm open...
[/quote]
It think it depends on the component & build quality of the amp. Like a well built engine will take a lot of running hard compared to your everyday engine.
Ashdown Superfly is an example to start with for component failure.

[JTUK]

I have an old SWR 400 which runs VERY hot and has no fan. They added them later but you'd jump if you touched
the chassis after running a while. Putting them in a flight case would need some thinking about IMO to allow it to breathe.
I have had it well over 20 years from new and it failed on me once when it was knocked from a cab to the ground under power.
The amp tech said it was very good component spec inside ...and they were known for that way back, so I think they were
built to run very hot and used quality parts to do so. I don't think you'd get those internals very easily now as that would
make the amps too exensive for the market and only the very best amps could justify it. The SM400 was regarded as THE amp
along with the SM900 at the time. Eden copied it, IMO and did very well with their versions, the WT series.

You can pick these 'vintage' ( pre-company buy-out ) amps up for very good money now and they will be amongst the best value around
IMO.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1409563944' post='2540815']
I have an old SWR 400 which runs VERY hot and has no fan. They added them later but you'd jump if you touched
the chassis after running a while. Putting them in a flight case would need some thinking about IMO to allow it to breathe.
I have had it well over 20 years from new and it failed on me once when it was knocked from a cab to the ground under power.
The amp tech said it was very good component spec inside ...and they were known for that way back, so I think they were
built to run very hot and used quality parts to do so. I don't think you'd get those internals very easily now as that would
make the amps too exensive for the market and only the very best amps could justify it. The SM400 was regarded as THE amp
along with the SM900 at the time. Eden copied it, IMO and did very well with their versions, the WT series.

You can pick these 'vintage' ( pre-company buy-out ) amps up for very good money now and they will be amongst the best value around
IMO.
[/quote]

I bet there's not much built like your SWR these days.
My brother has a couple of Radiovox valve PA amps from many decades ago. The build quality is probably far superior to most high end gear of today. They're still run regularly today & never has a single issue with them.

[spacey]

The trouble is a lot of of 2x10 are 4ohm and end up doing the lions share of the work if the 4x10 is 8ohm

[xgsjx]

?
Most of the 2x10s I see are 8 ohm. Most 2x12s I see are 4 ohm, but either could be gotten in 4 or 8 ohm, brand depending.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1409599335' post='2541410']
The trouble is a lot of of 2x10 are 4ohm and end up doing the lions share of the work if the 4x10 is 8ohm
[/quote]That's because of the manufacturers conceding to the "I want to get all the watts out of my amp" syndrome. A 16 ohm 2x10 would be best, allowing you to use up to four of them if you wish, or to pair one or even two of them with an 8 ohm 4x10. But even though it would be the dodgy amp that couldn't drive a 16 ohm 2x10 to full output no manufacturer is going to produce them, because the average player doesn't know that, and would never buy a 16 ohm cab.

[Marky L]

Interesting.
I have been toying with doing the same thing. I currently run an Ashdown 500w head into a 2x10 cab and a 1x15 cab, both rated at 8ohms. The 15 has a suggested max of 350W and the 2x10 about 600W IIRC.
Anyway I fancy adding a 4x10 8ohm to the 2X10. Both would have plenty of W headroom, I'd be loading the amp to 4 ohms in total so I can't see what probs I would have.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Marky L' timestamp='1409836488' post='2543796']
I currently run ..a 2x10 cab ...rated at 8ohms. I fancy adding a 4x10 8ohm to the 2X10. I can't see what probs I would have.
[/quote]The drivers in the 210 would see twice the power as those in the 410, making the excursion capability of the 210 drivers the weak link in the chain. Looking at it from another perspective, what you'd be able to get out of the system wouldn't be all that much different than what you would get out of a matched pair of 8 ohm 210s. The additional output capability of the 410 wouldn't be of much use with the 210 holding it back.

[chris_b]

Marky, you wouldn't have any problems.

You wouldn't be overdriving the 210 and only putting 250 watts into the 410 isn't actually a problem.

[JTUK]

I ran a 212 at 8 and a 210 at 8 and the 210 struggled as the amp could deliver 750 into 4.
I wasn't max'ed out on the volume but I may have been pushing the amp a bit, but I could hear the 210
struggle. I changed the 212 for a 4 and run that with a 210 at 8. The amp can run down to 2
and I don't hear the 210 struggle or bottom out now. I don't really LOVE the 212 at 4 over the 212/8 version
I had as a standalone but the 210 paired with the 212 does really well. The 210's are elevated
a bit more than 2x210's and I really like the bite this combo has.

The thinking is 212/600w at 4 Plus 210/350w at 8 is a better load balanced rig...
If you want to copy this, make the 410 4 ohms to run with 210/4 but you then need a very good amp to go below 4 ohms.

[Marky L]

Thanks guys, still toying with the idea.
When you look at JJ Burnel's rig, he has a twin set of a 4x10 sat on a 1x15, one would imagine that the 15" would be the weak link in the chain, but he's run that set up for quite some time.

[xgsjx]

The chances of JJ knowing or caring about a 1x15 being a weak link is slim to none.
Back when he started playing, he, like many others would have been lead to believe that you need the 4x10 for mids & the 1x15 for low end.

The rig in the pic is mostly for visual purposes.

Anytime I've added a 4x10 to my 2x10, I've had little to be gained compared to adding another 2x10.
I'd heed Bill's advice.

[Marky L]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1409863785' post='2544183']
The chances of JJ knowing or caring about a 1x15 being a weak link is slim to none.
Back when he started playing, he, like many others would have been lead to believe that you need the 4x10 for mids & the 1x15 for low end.

The rig in the pic is mostly for visual purposes.

Anytime I've added a 4x10 to my 2x10, I've had little to be gained compared to adding another 2x10.
I'd heed Bill's advice.
[/quote]

Yeah, but you would have thought his tech would ensure things were right. Then again, if you are endorsed by an a manufacture, you just get some more to play about with I suppose.

Certainly agree with another 2x10, that's likely the direction I'll take. I also have to take my feeble weak back in to consideration!

[chris_b]

Big stage rigs are just for show. The sound the musician is hearing will either be in-ears or monitors and the audience will only hear the FOH.

If you have back problems you should stay away from 410's, but I'd also suggest if you're going for a 2 210 rig you should look at better cabs. There are 2 AE210's in the classifieds which will blow most 210's into the weeds. They weigh 40lbs each and as a pair will be loud enough for any band, (I used mine in an ear piercing Led Zep tribute band and owned the half stack guitarist) and they'll give you the best tone you or you're band have heard.

[discreet]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1409905102' post='2544404']
Big stage rigs are just for show. The sound the musician is hearing will either be in-ears or monitors and the audience will only hear the FOH.
[/quote]

[bonzodog]

Very glad I started this thread as there is clearly difference of opinion which I find interesting.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1409911065' post='2544474']
Very glad I started this thread as there is clearly difference of opinion which I find interesting.
[/quote]Well, there's science and there's speculation. Science will win that battle every time.

[Marky L]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1409905102' post='2544404']

If you have back problems you should stay away from 410's, but I'd also suggest if you're going for a 2 210 rig you should look at better cabs. There are 2 AE210's in the classifieds which will blow most 210's into the weeds. They weigh 40lbs each and as a pair will be loud enough for any band, (I used mine in an ear piercing Led Zep tribute band and owned the half stack guitarist) and they'll give you the best tone you or you're band have heard.
[/quote]

I am very happy with my tone, which makes me question why change, but then isn't that something we all tend to do? Always searching for that holy grail.. even if you already have it in your hand. I have had many positive comments about my tone, I lean towards bright with some added extra grit from my Sansamp.

[discreet]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1409919644' post='2544587']
Well, there's science and there's speculation. Science will win that battle every time.
[/quote]

Plus about a billion - science is always right, whether you believe in it or not.

[grenadilla]

I want a 16ohm cabinet . If I had a 4ohm cabinet with two 10s connected in parallel to get 4ohms, and rewired them (two 8ohm speakers) in series to make 16ohms, would my crossover accept this? Would the horn get louder or stay the same? Or would I need a different crossover made for a 16ohm load?