Advice wanted for a gig rig

[Bradwell]

Been looking at various rigs for playing gigs in future, started up a punk/rock/indie band with some friends last month and been writing songs but probably 6 months off playing shows. The dog eared equipment I've got will do for jam sessions.

Was considering this deal after playing through some 2nd hand Hartke cabs at PMT Manchester: [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/hartke_kilo_1000_bundle.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...1000_bundle.htm[/url]

Also tried Ashdown AMB 410 + 115 and ABM 810 which all sounded a bit vanilla despite holding the bottom end well. Plus a TC 410 which I straight up didn't like. All were through an Ashdown ABM 500 amp which I wasn't too keen on either. Since then I've borrowed my dad's TC RH450 amp and have been running that through my laney 115 cab, the RH450 is a nice bit of kit and the cab is definitely the limiting factor in that set up.

Immediate questions are:

I've bought small bits and pieces from Thomann before, no problem, but will they sting me for international delivery on a big order like this?

What else should I consider for a similar price (up to £1,500) / powerhandling capability (500 watts+)? I want lots of headroom and tend to mix playing techniques (slap/fingerstyle/picked/tapped).

Are there any other stores around Manchester with a decent selection of bass gear that I can try?

Would I be better with 2 x 410 Hartke cabs or a 410 + 115? There's not much difference in price and unless there's a significant advantage in low frequency response I'd probably have the 2 x 410s - anybody had experience with both set ups?

Cheers.

[Lozz196]

Go for the two 410s. That way you can use one for practice/small gigs, both for bigger gigs, and not need to re-eq, as the 410 & 115 are likely to sound different (and you may not always want to carry two big cabs to practice). Plus adding a single 115, whilst it will make a difference, won`t be anywhere near as significant as adding in another 410.

[M@23]

Do you really need an 8 or two 4x10?! You're probably better off buying one better quality 4x10 or a 2x12. For the money you have you could get an awesome cab and class D head. Which series TC cab did you not like?

[mrtcat]

£1500 would get you something epic in the 2nd hand section. Personally I'd go for a new Gallien Krueger MB500 Fusion and a decent used 2x12 (berg / barefaced / aguilar etc etc). I personally have had hideous problems with Hartke gear and wouldn't wish their products on my worst enemy.

[Bradwell]

Two 410s would be ideal as I can leave one at home and one in the band's secret underground facility (dank basement), bung the amp head in the car and have both for gigs if necessary. Not too interested in 810s for practicality reasons and low resale values.

Can't remember which TC cab I tried but suspect it was the BC410, it just immediately struck me as lacking low end kick and the mid/treble voicing wasn't to my taste. Would give TC cabs another try through a different amp head though.

2nd hand isn't out of the question, it just depends on finding something suitable up in the Northwest and having the cash to buy there and then.

mrtcat: were your problems with the amp heads or cabs?

[jazzyvee]

I've used Ashdown cabs a lot at festivals and gigs where a back line is provided and i've never been happy with their sound to be honest.

I would recommend checking out some Mesa Boogie Power house cabs. I have 3 of them and they are superb. I've been using them for about 10 yrs now. A 4x10 and a 1x15 which i generally individually and a 2x10 that I use on it's own or with the 1x15. They have a lot of punch and clarity and sound very solid.

I don't play rock music but Mesa gear is used a lot in rock so you should be fine with the music you play and the techniques you use. I hope you find something suitable. It took me ages listening to cabs and amps before i settled on these. They were right as soon as I plugged them in.

Edited August 31, 2014 by jazzyvee

[xgsjx]

Like Lozz says, having 2 different cabs is a bit of a mismatch.
2 good 2x10s or 2x12s would be a better option than any of the others as it gives you the height of an 8x10, but with a much better dispersion (so folk who are not stood directly in front of your rig get to hear your glorious sound too).
If you need more than this, then the stadium PA should offer some monitoring.

[JTUK]

Eden 212 and 210 with an Eden head. Should be able to pick all that up for £1000 or less, s/h.

[Bradwell]

Ok so generally, lots of love for 210s and 212s so I will try those too. Avoid mixing 10s and 15s and keep dispersion in mind when auditioning cabs.

I'm pretty set that I don't want Ashdown gear but otherwise it's wide open as to which manufacturer I'm going with.

However, can we get back to the original questions posed that haven't been answered? Mainly where in the northwest should I go to check out gear? Bass direct in Warwick is on the cards when I get a free weekend.

I suppose I should re-phrase the other one: is there a reason that Thomann deal on Hartke is too good to be true - more power than I should need, relatively cheap and I liked the Hartke 410 cab (admittedly half an hours play on it isn't enough for me to dive in and buy it). Will I be paying excessive shipping charges? Are the head and cabs reliable and capable of pushing the amount of power that the specs suggest? I can make up my own mind on the sound when auditioning them but would appreciate advice from a few people who've owned/gigged this equipment.

[Lozz196]

Well I had a Hartke 210/115 set-up, with one of their 400 watt heads, the HA4000. It was very versatile, and very loud. The band I was in at the time was just one of those loud heavy rock bands and that Hartke stack had no trouble with keeping up, if anything I had to watch my volume to avoid over-powering the others (2 Marshall valve half-stacks). Given that it was 400 watts and the Kilo is 1000 I can`t see how 1000 watts into two 410s wouldn`t be enough. I did also have one of the Hydrive 410s for a while but liking an old-school tone it was a bit too tight/modern sounding for me. Could certainly handle the volume though.

[M@23]

I ordered my 2x12 from Thomann, it was about £800 and I didn't get stung for any nasty charges. It weighed about 30kg all packaged up. In fact, shipping was cheaper than many of the big retailers in the UK!

Edited August 31, 2014 by M@23

[Bradwell]

M@23: Just re-checked the Thomann delivery charges, their maximum weight is 31kg for standard courier service anything heavier takes longer, as UK is considered flatrate delivery they don't charge extra. Probably the 5th time I've read that statement and it finally clicked. Good to get feedback on the question though.

Lozz: I think loud and heavy is the way my band will go, we were jamming on Tuesday and developed a tune that hinged around slowly building volume and atmosphere (like Swans, Godspeed or any other post rock band you can think of) the first 20 minutes were spent hammering root and octave G to let them drone/feedback plus tapping out other notes further up the neck. I will be up against two half stacks once I've reconed the speakers in my 412 guitar cab, until then our rhythm guitarist is limited by loaned equipment (he can wait for the cab until I've got my rig sorted).

[xgsjx]

Giving a guitarist a 4x12 is not a clever move.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Bradwell' timestamp='1409502780' post='2540259']
Two 410s would be ideal as I can leave one at home and one in the band's secret underground facility ([b]dank basement[/b]), bung the amp head in the car and have both for gigs if necessary. Not too interested in 810s for practicality reasons and low resale values.
[/quote] I don't think speaker coils like dank....

BTW... there's part of me who thinks you're a wee bit daft - £1500, esp secondhand could get you an amazing rig... I would start by asking what exactly do you want... what do you want to sound like.
then ask how loud do I need to be.
then ask how light does it need to be.
and then figure out which of the last two are more important

[Bradwell]

The basement is alright, cool and dry so the speakers would be fine. I was aiming for subtle humour in that sentence.

Was leaning towards new equipment as it'd be under warranty, Hartke equipment on the basis that I like punchy, tight and clear sounding and I'm a fan of Victor Wooten (although I don't know if he get's given equipment or paid for advertising by Hartke). Other famous bassists whose tones I like would be Les Claypool (Primus), Mike Watt (Minutemen) & Joe Lally (Fugazi)

How loud - the equipment I'm currently running works out at 170 watts and is on it's limit at times during practice sessions and neither guitarist is running their 4x12s at the moment. Looking at pub gigs up to medium size halls/clubs. Needs to be a versatile set up but loud is definitely a bigger consideration than weight.

How light - Trace Elliot equipment is off the cards as my physical build is best described as beanpole. Superlight isn't necessary though as I'm fit & perfectly capable of lifting most stuff.

[karlfer]

Just a slight word of caution. A lot of us were fit and perfectly capable of lugging 4 x12's, 2 x18's, 4 x 15's back in the day.
Now a lot of us are not, due to lugging those cabs up and down stairs 4 times a night for years.
Lift properly, learn the lesson us owld gits learned the hard way

[Phil Starr]

That's a fantastic budget and should give you a pretty wide choice and some great gear. Your approach is going to be the best way forward. You are going to give everything a good listen before you buy. I feel sorry for the shops a little if they are going to invest hours in you auditioning gear before you go to a German discounter. You should at least offer them the chance to price match

Hartke speakers are unique and if you like the sound then you probably have to stick with them or use them as the sound to compare your other options with. Too many people here go on about dispersion with 4x10's. There are problems with a restricted dispersion of higher frequencies but this is also part of the sound, the restricted dispersion pattern is also helpful in many venues as it reduces the reverberant sound off the side walls and ceilings. Mixing cabs is ok but it has a tendency to smooth out any character in the speakers rather than adding the character of both.

I'll question however the wisdom of going for a huge rig like this. I can see that you might struggle with 170W into a couple of dodgy old speakers but put that through a 4ohm 4x10 and you are going to get a lot more volume immediately. Get a really good 2x12 and a more powerful amp for example and you can completely drown out the drums. I've said it elsewhere but my drummer complained he couldn't hear his own snare when I cranked up my own rig. If you are going to have to mic the drums then your band will sound better with your money invested into the PA. Really if your rig can reproduce bass without distortion at 120dB you are going to be more than loud enough to drown the drummer and damage your own hearing permanently (That's serious, not exaggeration by the way) I really wouldn't give most guitarists a 4x12 for the same reason.

You've said that you will be playing small to medium venues, why carry gear designed for playing stadiums in the days before PA support was available?

[JTUK]

If you are going to buy from Thomann...and I agree with the sentiment about supporting local shops as where will anyone test
anything when they have lost out to the Continental disocunters..??...then buy decent stuff from them.. not the stuff you'll have
to send back as that is a PITA. It is worth spending a few quid over to buy local.

And... most decent suppliers of kit have made it contractually impossible for Thomann to sell retail to U.K shops cheaper than
they can get it wholesale.

I've bought stuff from Thomann before...but not stuff I can source locally. They tend to be the last place I'll go to now.
Not that I haven't had decent enough service from them... it is just that you need local shops to survive, IMO.

[Bradwell]

I'm well aware of the weight and volume issues: back straight when lifting, 2 man if necessary, always have earplugs for when I need them, put loads of padding against the walls in our rehearsal space so that the sound is clearer and the sound level of the drums is effectively reduced by cutting the amount of reverberation.

I will always need bits and pieces so in return for auditioning equipment in store then I'll atleast buy some strings / picks / cables etc. I'd also prefer to keep money in the local economy so if a store can cut me a fair deal on buying a full rig I'd prefer to do that.

We haven't got a PA set up yet and I suppose borrowing one for a couple of sessions to experiment with the acoustics goes on my 'to do' list.

I like the sound of alu/paper HyDrive cones so it'll be my reference point when trying other equipment but it's not like I've got my heart set on them.

[M@23]

Another consideration might be stage sizes. A lot of the pubs i play wouldn't have the space to fit 2 4x12, plus my rig and drums, PA and all. you should try demo as much as you can. With your budget you could get some really cool stuff.

[Bradwell]

That's why I was looking at 410s and not 810s. Our rehearsal space is in a pub basement and the first gig will be there (they let us practice for free but we owe them a gigs in return). Although there's plenty of space there, the other bars & pubs around town are much more space limited.

BC is definitely swaying me towards stacking up 210/212s though, get the feeling that my current equipment when compared to something modern will a) not be pushing the full 50 watts through the top cab, suffer from the 15" driver on the bottom cab having low sensitivity and need all of the 120 watts it's rated at.

Expect that a similar amount of power into a modern rig should blow them away. However at the moment, daisychaining them together is the only way I can get decent volume and clarity. On their own, both combos are severely limited.

[spacey]

Think speaker inches.
1x15 is 15 inches of paper moving air.
4x10 is 40 inches moving air.

In a cab the same size it's a no brainier the 4x10 will win.
A 4x10 and 2x10 that can be used at smaller gigs + rehearsals is good if you can get a 8 ohm 2x10 or they end up doing the work whilst the 4x10 idles.
You have combinations then.
Rehearsal/ small gig 2x10
Pub gig 4x10
huge gig 4x10 +2x10

[sharkboy]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1409563046' post='2540804']
Just a slight word of caution. A lot of us were fit and perfectly capable of lugging 4 x12's, 2 x18's, 4 x 15's back in the day.
Now a lot of us are not, due to lugging those cabs up and down stairs 4 times a night for years.
Lift properly, learn the lesson us owld gits learned the hard way
[/quote]

Quoted for painful truth!

As a recent convert, I'd second recommendations for a good lightweight 2x12 and a class D head. My TC blacksmith is amazing, though not the cheapest. The RH750 would be a fine substitute, and is versatile enough to cover any sound you might want. There are plenty of good options for 2x12s out there, and if you've enough left in the budget you could always buy 2 for more versatility!

Edited September 1, 2014 by sharkboy

[xgsjx]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1409580718' post='2541097']
Think speaker inches.
1x15 is 15 inches of paper moving air.
4x10 is 40 inches moving air.

In a cab the same size it's a no brainier the 4x10 will win.
A 4x10 and 2x10 that can be used at smaller gigs + rehearsals is good if you can get a 8 ohm 2x10 or they end up doing the work whilst the 4x10 idles.
You have combinations then.
Rehearsal/ small gig 2x10
Pub gig 4x10
huge gig 4x10 +2x10
[/quote]
Not quite, but the sentiment is right.

It's how much mass is being covered. 4 10's are covering more mass than a 15, but not almost 3 times as much. A 15 will have slightly more mass than a 2x10.

There's another recent thread on here about the downside of adding a 2x10 to a 4x10, getting an even volume to the drivers (by using either a 4Ω & 8Ω cab) & the dangers of overloading your amp.

A good 2x10/12 will cover most medium sized gigs. Add another for the big gigs.

Edited September 1, 2014 by xgsjx

[6v6]

[quote name='Bradwell' timestamp='1409578063' post='2541055']
That's why I was looking at 410s and not 810s. Our rehearsal space is in a pub basement and the first gig will be there (they let us practice for free but we owe them a gigs in return). Although there's plenty of space there, the other bars & pubs around town are much more space limited.
[/quote]

If pub gigs are your plan, I'd definitely concur [size=4]with the small modular rig approach - no landlord is going to thank you for turning up with a monster stack and deafening all the punters - even one 4x10 is overkill for most pub gigs IMO.[/size]