Advice wanted for a gig rig

[Jonesthebass]

Bradwell check your pm.

[andyonbass]

I would suggest getting yourself a train ticket down to the Southeast bass bash on Nov 1st - You will be able to see/hear/ touch and play through all manner of Head/cab combinations, most of which will be well within your budget. Don't forget your earplugs! ;-)
Might be a bit of a trip but if you're spending that sort of money it's probably the best research plus its a good day out!

[chris_b]

I'd drive down to Bassdirect and look at the Bergantino NV412 (£800).

That leaves you £600 for an amp in the BC Classifieds.

[ubit]

For that money mate, don't get Hartke gear. In my Humble opinion, it sucks! It's a unique sound that you will grow to hate! There's so much better out there if, as said before, you try out in local shops.
Thomann are great, especially for people who live away from city centre shops, but go for better gear!

[spacey]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1409645693' post='2541737']
For that money mate, don't get Hartke gear. In my Humble opinion, it sucks! It's a unique sound that you will grow to hate! There's so much better out there if, as said before, you try out in local shops.
Thomann are great, especially for people who live away from city centre shops, but go for better gear!
[/quote]

Have to agree, bought a 4x10, the one with paper cones and it did not make it to the end of a gig, one by one the speakers farted and blew, where the cheapo peavey had worked for years.
Worst cab ever.

[karlfer]

We are at The Witton Chimes in Northwich on Sat. Stockport isn't that far.
Feel free to come and try my bass rig out before we kick off. Just to give you an idea of what can be done on much less than your budget and without putting away chiropractor savings .

PMT in Manchester have some great gear BUT, budget yourself a day out and go see Gary at Promenade in Morecambe. Top fella and they usually have lots of bass gear in.

And finally, you said in your OP that the limiting factor with the TC head was your cab.
I had a TC Staccatto and was very underwhelmed with the volume. BUT, that is my experience and my opinion, firestorms about how wrong I am, from TC fanbois will be ignored by me

Edited September 2, 2014 by karlfer

[Bradwell]

Thanks for all the advice, think I've got a plan together now and getting a couple of decent 2x10 or 2x12 cabs with high power handling capacity seems the way to go. Will just buy one at first and I can get another if I'm finding I really need to move more air than one cab can handle.

Will have days out to Bassdirect in Warwick / promenade in Morecambe, would love to go to the South East Bass Bash if my schedule permits. Going to play through as much equipment as I can find but cab manufacturers I'm mainly looking at are Eden, Mesa, Barefaced, Aguilar & Bergantino.

Will keep my Dad's TC RH450 on loan to give me a reference and take my Jbass to demos so I'm not constantly swapping equipment. Will try out a bunch of amp heads in each shop when I've decided which cab I like best in that store.

Karlfer: Already noticed your Super 12 for sale & the offer to try your rig is very much appreciated. Will PM if I can make the gig, potentially busy weekend ahead rebuilding my fretless amongst other things. I'm not expecting the TC to kick out loads of power but it's a nice enough piece of kit and handles volumes that I use at practice sessions or when the neighbours are out.

[tauzero]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1409580718' post='2541097']
Think speaker inches.
1x15 is 15 inches of paper moving air.
4x10 is 40 inches moving air.
[/quote]

No, it's volume of air displaced that counts. The area of a 15" speaker is 225sq" [1] and 4x10" total 400sq". I haven't studied Xmax in great detail but I suspect that a 15" speaker would tend to have a bigger Xmax than a 10" speaker, so that brings them closer together in terms of air volume displaced.

[1] Well, it's bigger than that as it's a cone. However, imagine a spherical cow...

[Bradwell]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1409654324' post='2541842']
No, it's volume of air displaced that counts. The area of a 15" speaker is 225sq" [1] and 4x10" total 400sq". I haven't studied Xmax in great detail but I suspect that a 15" speaker would tend to have a bigger Xmax than a 10" speaker, so that brings them closer together in terms of air volume displaced.

[1] Well, it's bigger than that as it's a cone. However, imagine a spherical cow...
[/quote]

Basically yes, but that's a seperate discussion. From what I remember the volume displaced by the speaker cones (area x excursion) governs the sound power for bass and 15's tend to have a greater xmax, the diameter of the speaker cone was related to the lowest fundamental frequency that could be reproduced but I'm not digging out my books on speaker design right now.

I've decided to avoid 15's as the extra mass makes them less responsive and pairing them up to other cabinets requires either loads of EQ or bi-amping to be done properly IMO.

Can we let that one go? I'd rather not go there on this thread and want a musicians perspective on what sounds best and is most practical.

[karlfer]

Bradwell, you obviously know what you are doing, so just a bleeding obvious statement/reminder follows .
If you are going down the ultimate route of a couple of 2 x10's, 2 x 12's, don't buy anything like mine, (4 ohms), as very few amps go down to 2 ohms.

[bassfunk]

Hey, get yourself in to see Drew at Manchester Bass Lounge: http://manchesterbasslounge.com/?cat=78 he'll help you out and can order stuff in for you to try. He'll get you a beer/brew and let you try anything you like.

[chris_b]

Check out the Bergantino HS410 cab (in the classifieds), not far from you.

If it's in good nick it'll be the best cab you'll hear for years.

[davehux]

Have you sussed out the types of places who will be booking your band. If it's your average Dog & Duck, you really don't need to go armed with weapons of mass destruction. The landlord wont like it, and the punters will be pinned to the back wall trying to escape.

What sounds amazing in a rehearsal room is, IMHO, way, way too loud for a pub gig. Go for quality rather than quantity - same goes for the guitards - don't let them loose on a 4x12

Grab that Barefaced S12v while it's still available. It will happily punch the kidneys out of a drummer, while still sounding meaty at normal volumes.

[Bradwell]

I have a tendency to not do things by halves, original thinking was I'd rather have more power than I'd be likely to use. Given limited experience of bass cabs the Hartke stack initially seemed like a good deal, but more sophisticated & smaller cabs will probably be the way forward.

Not sussed out the way our band will go yet, got the basis for four songs, loads of ideas, tonnes of enthusiasm for the project plus we all get along well as band members. Looks like amplification will go down the route of equipment that sounds good with more than enough on tap to overpower the drums. If we're in need of more volume it'll have to be routed through a decent PA. Big concerts are going to be a way down the road, if we make it that far: I can re-evaluate bass amplification at a later date if needs be.

Re the 4x12's: I'm not particularly keen on the tone of our lead's guitarist's Marshall valve-state so if I can avoid starting a loudness war then it's an added bonus to get him playing something more subtle on the basis that it'll be easier to transport.

[ern500evo]

I agree with Davehux, grab that Barefaced S12 from Karlfer while it's available, thats gonna leave you £900 for an amp, and you can get a whole lotta heft for £900!! You'll be amazed at how loud,clear, articulate, modern 2x12's are. There's plenty of us here that have gone from 8x10/410+115/410x2 to modern 2x12's and have never looked back. My last 3 cab set up's were 8x10, 115+410 and 115+210. I now use a class D head and a Barefaced Big Twin 2 and i'd never go back the other way, well unless it was a SVT CL and 8x10 and someone else was moving it! If you want brand new i would also add Bergantino CN212 to your list.

[chris_b]

Smaller cabs are fine, but just because you have a big cab doesn't mean you have to be loud.

A larger cab lets you be as loud as you want or need to be (why be any louder than that?), while maintaining your headroom (for quality of tone). More speakers gives you better tone and heft in the note.

The Barefaced S12 and the Genz Benz STL 9.2 (both in classifieds) would make a fantastic rig.

[ern500evo]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1409671911' post='2542068']

The Barefaced S12 and the Genz Benz STL 9.2 (both in classifieds) would make a fantastic rig.
[/quote]
+1
I can't see you needing more headroom than that rig would offer doing pub/club gigs.

[ubit]

[quote name='davehux' timestamp='1409662462' post='2541943']


Grab that Barefaced S12v while it's still available. It will happily punch the kidneys out of a drummer, while still sounding meaty at normal volumes.
[/quote]

+100 for the Barefaced! I bought a 2 x 12 after having used Ampeg 4 x 10 and Genz 6x 10 and it's a beast. The bottom end coming from it is something that has to be heard to be believed. You will NEVER get that kind of bass from any Hartke gear. It's quite simply the only cab you will ever need. I'm sure I read somewhere that Alex was offering a try before you buy service or something like that. He is that sure you will like it!

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bradwell' timestamp='1409664928' post='2541982']
Not sussed out the way our band will go yet, got the basis for four songs, loads of ideas, tonnes of enthusiasm for the project plus we all get along well as band members. Looks like amplification will go down the route of equipment that sounds good with more than enough on tap to overpower the drums. If we're in need of more volume it'll have to be routed through a decent PA. Big concerts are going to be a way down the road, if we make it that far: I can re-evaluate bass amplification at a later date if needs be.
[/quote]

I don't think you need to be thinking about having the enough volume to overpower the drums.You need enough to be balanced
with the band as a whole, not to overpower anyone. Also, if you do get to play big concerts you shouldnt have to reevaluate your
rig, because in those situations you'll always have PA support. I've played some pretty big gigs with my Ashdown MiBass rig which is either a 550 or 240 watt head and one or two 1x12 cabs.Its got plenty of volume to be able to play smaller venues with no support, and has tone for days. I know you're against Ashdown, but I can honestly say that it blows away my old Hartke rig (HA3500, HA4000, 4x10, 2x10) in every way.
Personally, I'd be more concerned about you saying that you won't be ready to gig for 6 months.

[scalpy]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1409688111' post='2542312']


I don't think you need to be thinking about having the enough volume to overpower the drums.You need enough to be balanced
with the band as a whole, not to overpower anyone. Also, if you do get to play big concerts you shouldnt have to reevaluate your
rig, because in those situations you'll always have PA support. I've played some pretty big gigs with my Ashdown MiBass rig which is either a 550 or 240 watt head and one or two 1x12 cabs.Its got plenty of volume to be able to play smaller venues with no support, and has tone for days. I know you're against Ashdown, but I can honestly say that it blows away my old Hartke rig (HA3500, HA4000, 4x10, 2x10) in every way.
Personally, I'd be more concerned about you saying that you won't be ready to gig for 6 months.
[/quote]

A hearty thumbs up to this. One guy I play for has a tidy knack of booking pretty sweet gigs and I just stick with the same 500w amp and two 112s. When the pa has bass cabs taller than you are having a 810 etc doesn't really come into it. Interestingly we did a festival last year (lechlade) and I had to use an ampeg 610, couldn't hear myself anywhere I went onstage whilst it was the only time the rest if the band moaned about me being too loud. Apart from the saxophonist, any bass player would too loud for him if they weren't tickling a brontosaurus violin un amplified!

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1409688111' post='2542312']
I don't think you need to be thinking about having the enough volume to overpower the drums.You need enough to be balanced
with the band as a whole, not to overpower anyone. Also, if you do get to play big concerts you shouldnt have to reevaluate your
rig, because in those situations you'll always have PA support. I've played some pretty big gigs with my Ashdown MiBass rig which is either a 550 or 240 watt head and one or two 1x12 cabs.Its got plenty of volume to be able to play smaller venues with no support, and has tone for days. I know you're against Ashdown, but I can honestly say that it blows away my old Hartke rig (HA3500, HA4000, 4x10, 2x10) in every way.
Personally, I'd be more concerned about you saying that you won't be ready to gig for 6 months.
[/quote]

Oh dear I think I started this, my throwaway phrase about overpowering the drums was meant humourously. It is clearly absurd to do this although being able to be louder than a drummer means you have enough headroom and you have reached the point where you can stop adding more. I think the OP understands that.

Having just ordered an MiBass to replace my HA3500 I'm really pleased to read that It upgraded your sound. Thanks for the advice by the way.

[Bradwell]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1409727980' post='2542586']
Oh dear I think I started this, my throwaway phrase about overpowering the drums was meant humourously. It is clearly absurd to do this although being able to be louder than a drummer means you have enough headroom and you have reached the point where you can stop adding more. I think the OP understands that.
[/quote]

Yep, we're working on achieving a balanced volume level as a band and I understand the need for plenty of headroom on a rig. Better if you can run a large amp cool instead of stressing a small amp. Overloaded the 120W amp in my old Laney combo yesterday, I was using that alone because I couldn't be bothered hauling tonnes of gear to the practice room. It cut out from overheating after about 40 minutes, luckily I still have my Dad's TC amp so I routed that through the laney speaker.

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1409688111' post='2542312']
Personally, I'd be more concerned about you saying that you won't be ready to gig for 6 months.
[/quote]

It's a realistic timescale, writing our own tunes (got the basis for 5 after bringing the band together about 6 weeks ago) and will probably put a couple of covers into our set. Plus we're all working at different times so Tuesday evenings are the only constant, the drummer is busy weekends and most evenings whilst I'm 9-5. We're getting more practice sessions in whenever we can.

BTW, this is my first proper band (more than just jamming with friends or experimenting with home recording), the other guys have been in bands before but none of us are professional musicians so the timescale also allows for us to save up for equipment we will need and make sure our playing is tight. I figure that booking our first gig and getting loads of friends to come along should be relatively easy, if our performance on stage is lousy then any gigs that follow are going to be much more difficult.

[bonzodog]

IMHO i would wait till the band is more established and gigs booked before I spend that much on gear but I admire your commitment and organisation.
Good luck

[Bradwell]

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1409735279' post='2542701']
IMHO i would wait till the band is more established and gigs booked before I spend that much on gear but I admire your commitment and organisation.
Good luck
[/quote]

I've wanted some decent bass amplification for ages so I'd buy it even if the band imploded.

Playing gigs and writing my own music has been one of my life's goals since I started playing guitar about 8 years ago. I've been lucky that this band has come together as I've got many other friends who are good to jam with but would be hopeless in a band situation. Best mate plays bass and has a habit of playing it like a solo instrument - excellent at picking up tunes by ear but hopeless at holding a groove and listening to instructions.

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Cosmo Valdemar]

I'm using two Gallien Krueger Neo 112 cabs. They are very squat and wide but when stacked vertically they make for a pretty tall rig! I've never had a volume issue with them and I've played some pretty large and cavernous halls and have John Bonham next to me on the drums.