Pub band question

[Dropzone]

Hi Gang

I have a 1k rig that is loud enough for any pub gig without needing the PA. However, after yesterdays talk about which included separation I was wondering should I run through the PA (2 x 15" mackie subs + 2 x 15 tops) to thicken the sound or stay out of the PA to allow everything else to work easier?

Perhaps even a "just in the mix level"

Just wondering what your thoughts area.

Ta

Mike

[KK Jale]

I'd stay out of it personally.

My rig, half the power of yours and probably a lot less speakers, hasn't struggled with a pub gig yet. We get a nice sound to work with and leave plenty of headroom on the PA to cope with vocal, BV's, DI'd acoustic, saxes, etc.

[Lozz196]

Out is my opinion, more out of laziness if I`m honest. In my old punk covers band the guitarist wanted a PA that we could put all the instruments through so that the sound would be better. He may well have been right but the amount of gear we had to carry, plus setting up/breaking down time just got on my nerves. Nothing wrong with 2 PA speakers for vox and all backline powerful enough to be heard with the drums in my view for a pub gig.

[stingrayPete1977]

Whats in the two mackie subs now!?

[LemonCello]

It really depends on what your line-up is. We have two guitars, Drums, Bass and keys. I've tried going straight into the desk and the amount of Bass seems to muddy the sound somewhat. Amp only and it gets a bit lost, so now I take the Amp and Di out into the desk. As Lozz above says, humping a 3K PA which is great quality but old and V heavy keeps my Chiropractor busy!

[JTUK]

Out...the P.A isn't man enough to handle full bass...so I wouldn't even bother with a bass bleed.
You'll not gain anything and you could possibly compromise the Vox and other signals.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1409595357' post='2541323']
Out...the P.A isn't man enough to handle full bass...so I wouldn't even bother with a bass bleed.
You'll not gain anything and you could possibly compromise the Vox and other signals.
[/quote]
2 Mackie subs are more than capable of taking some bass guitar at pub volume, why will the voacls be going down there, are they a Barry White tribute show? I am saying in with that PA

[pete.young]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1409599375' post='2541411']
2 Mackie subs are more than capable of taking some bass guitar at pub volume, why will the voacls be going down there, are they a Barry White tribute show? I am saying in with that PA
[/quote]
I'd say in , too. Makes it much easier for whoever is controlling the FOH sound if they only have to deal with the FOH, and not worry about the contribution from the backline (especially if you are in the habit of fiddling with it during the gig!) .

[stingrayPete1977]

Plus you can afford a little more [i]bite [/i]in your own rig without having no bottom end in the mix, I always pre EQ before the desk because it is as they say FTW

[Les]

In, let the PA do the work and have a nice quiet onstage sound .

[dand666]

Always through the PA.

[Monckyman]

P.A and drop the backline low

[tauzero]

Experiment. I'd say out but I'm no expert.

[skidder652003]

deffo in from a DI, don't deafen you and everyone else with just your 1K (!) rig, better overall balance FOH as well, how much more hassle is it to run a lead from the DI out to the PA desk??

[JTUK]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1409599375' post='2541411']
2 Mackie subs are more than capable of taking some bass guitar at pub volume, why will the voacls be going down there, are they a Barry White tribute show? I am saying in with that PA
[/quote]

How much bass do you think will be solely in the subs...? you will get some in the tops for sure and that will be asking a lot
of those tops.

[ubit]

I'd say if your going to be loud, then definitely play through the PA with a quieter back line . If it's a smaller gig, then possibly just use back line with only vocals through the PA . We always put everything through the PA to get a balanced punchy sound . If the bass alone is not in the subs, your getting a localised sound which is gonna lose the power of the subs

[Happy Jack]

I've been trying to avoid it, just for simplicity, but my drummer is now routinely wanting to mic up his kick drum (not loads of it in the PA, but enough to make a difference) and I've noticed that changes the balance between drum and bass more than I'd expected.

On the subject of overloading the PA, we have no bass bins and we use a pair of 1x12 McGregor tops. At our last gig we used the electric drumkit and ended up putting that roughly 50/50 each through the PA and through the powered 1x12 wedge monitor that sits next to the kit.

No speakers were destroyed as a result.

[Adrenochrome]

If you want the band to sound good out front, it has to be through the PA. Also as stated above, it allows backline levels to be sensible which helps with onstage sound, particularly for vox and backing vox.

[Phil Starr]

OK you have a very simple choice to make, it isn't a matter of right and wrong, both can be made to work and for me the critical question is do you have a sound engineer to mix FOH. Your choices are:

Everything through the PA
Keep the PA for vocals and acoustic instruments.

The advantage of everything through the PA is twofold, you can reduce the onstage sound right down which will enable you to hear everyone in the band better including yourself. Then you'll collectively and individually play better. With a lower sound level you get to keep your hearing without having to wear ear defenders. You'll also have a much clearer sound for the audience because you won't have the back line picked up by the vocal mics.
The second advantage is that of control, With most of the sound coming through the PA people in line with the guitards amps will hear what the rest of the band are doing and you can project the sound so everyone gets to hear everything. You can't have a properly mixed sound unless the engineer can adjust all the volumes at the mixer.

The advantage of everything except vocals through the backline is simplicity. Don't knock simplicity, you are far more likely to get simple sound right on the nail. You set up exactly as the last gig, someone goes out front and says guitarist down a bit, bass up, or whatever and you are good to go. The other thing is that you hear the same volume or slightly louder than the audience and this makes it all feel much more trouser flappingly immediate. You will suffer some permanent hearing loss though without ear defenders.

I much prefer a fully mixed sound, I've been a sound engineer for 40 years and a musician for 6, but with no-one front of house my bands both have settled on a vocal PA only for pub gigs, without someone out there mixing dynamically a fully mixed system is something that needs a lot of skill to do effectively.

Why take subs at all though if you are not putting bass through the PA?

If you want more you might find some of this useful and it has links to more detailed articles http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591207

Cheers

[ubit]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1409643675' post='2541716']


Why take subs at all though if you are not putting bass through the PA?

[/quote]


Exactly!!!

[JTUK]

We are known for a good sound and we let the backline do the bulk of the work. We get the vox right up and out front
and then we take bleeds. We aren't a quiet band but we will have keys and gtr and kick and OH thru the P.A if the P.A rig is man enough.
Nothing is going to need to get in the way of the vox and it needs constant attention to any volume creep. This is why we keep the gtr and keys down to bleeds
whilst the backline does the grunt. That way, the P.A is less liable to be over run. To run a mix outfront you need an engr out front and if you don't have
one you are chancing a lot to luck and you can't changes when they need to be made. If you get it wrong..the chances are it will stay wrong for the whole gig or half time.
If you run kick and keys, they will end up in the tops as well if you have a typical x-over of around 120. This can work the tops hard to the detriment of the vox, IMO.
How you start and sound check and how to end up volume-wise takes a LOT of discipline and control and frnaky that is beyond most drumers and gtrs ..at the very least.

[Monckyman]

Agree with JT above, but...Engineer or not out front, that backline still needs to be balanced and nobody onstage has the faintest idea how it sounds out front using either method.
I prefer everything in the P.A, and have steered my bands equipment that way with a slightly larger P.A, but less backline.
As an engineer, I want more control over FOH levels, and that means quieter backline, I did a 5 band festi type gig last week and the biggest problem was the massive
Ampeg rig all the bassists loved playing through, but I couldn't balance the mix, because whatever I did, there was simply too much bass guitar.
it was very very loud, and asking, then telling the bassist to turn it down to acceptable levels got the stock phrase "but I can hardly hear it now",to which I replied, yes, but then you can hardly hear anything now because you've just had that thing on full a couple of feet away.
So my theory is, balancing the rig when that DOESN'T involve telling someone the volume they just got used to onstage is too loud,ie:(pulling a fader on the FOH mixer) is a far easier option.
I also find it next to impossible to get a decent vocal monitor setup when you have to compete with a backline that's being used to fill the venue, yet is only a meter away.
When the band know everything is in the P.A, they are a lot more relaxed about "being heard in the mix,man".
Having said all that, many people get great results using JTs method, and save the P.A for the vox.

[gadgie]

Do you need 1K for a pub?...Geewhizz.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1409643233' post='2541709']
If you want the band to sound good out front, it has to be through the PA. Also as stated above, it allows backline levels to be sensible which helps with onstage sound, particularly for vox and backing vox.
[/quote]

This would be my general approach, although to be fair I haven't done it for a few years now so things might have changed in the meantime (but I doubt it ). I've seen bands come horribly unstuck after refusing the offer to go through the P.A.

Subs do help take the strain as well, although it may be a bit moot as to whether you need them in a typical pub.

[flyfisher]

Very interesting discussion. I've done gigs with various configurations and everything through the PA definitely gives the best control, but it means someone to run the desk and, in the context of the OP, somewhere to put the desk, which is not really practical in many pubs or small venues.

So unless we have a lot of space, like outdoors, or we're playing somewhere with an in house PA and sound engineer then we stick to vocal-only PA, sometimes with an acoustic guitar DI'd into it. But sound balance is then a frustrating issue because there is hardly any dynamic control during the gig. So we do a sound check, get things as best we can, but are then at the mercy of the sound changing when people turn up or any of the band turning up their amps. To be fair, we don't have a problem with the 'number 11’ syndrome but even so we all tend to adjust things during the gig, which must affect the sound we bothered to set up during the sound check.

Not sure there is a perfect answer really.