Pub band question

[Bassman Steve]

I'm with Phil. If you don;t have a FOH engineer then it's a non-starter.

All through the PA can be fine (I take it the guitarists use Blues Juniors?) but the normal pub environment is very heavily against you.

[Lw.]

Ordinarily I'd go with the all through the PA side of the argument, but really that's only appropriate in music venues rather than pubs.

If by pub-gig you mean playing in a standard pub that puts on the occasional music night, you shouldn't be pushing your amps very hard at all as the noise levels will be all wrong. Amps with vocals through the PA should be fine as the space isn't big enough to warrant using amps as stage monitors & sending it all through the PA.

I suppose it's all about keeping within the context of the venue & the space available for me.

[stingrayPete1977]

So only bands with an engineer out front can put everything through the pa? This is Bollocks of the highest order, if anything getting the mix level as possible through the pa is better as knob twiddling won't affect the mix out front during the gig, as soon as you crank that bass amp enough for the whole room to hear the guitarists will match it if not double it, vocals can't be heard so the pa his louder etc etc etc, if you can't get a good even sound from a pair of Mackie subs and Mackie tops in a pub you should not be allowed to touch anything!

[stingrayPete1977]

If this is a small pub then by all means just use the amps as back line but leave the subs at home!

[Krysbass]

A lot will depend on whether your drummer is heavy-handed.

My band mostly plays pubs and I don't go through the pa - I use a 500 or 1000 watt head through two 2x10" cabs. Our drummer hits his kit very hard (insists he cant play any quieter) so I've no choice but to have my rig loud to be able to hear what I'm playing.

Besides - our PA system is only 600 watts, so it couldn't handle much bass anyway.

[Norris]

Out. They are pubs ffs, not arenas.

Keep the volume to sensible levels & LISTEN TO EACH OTHER.

[Bassman Steve]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1409656499' post='2541867']
So only bands with an engineer out front can put everything through the pa? This is Bollocks of the highest order,
[/quote]

No, it's an opinion that contradicts yours, nothing more drastic than that. In MY experience, you need a guy out front to twiddle during the set as the room will change as people come in etc. You don't need a FOH but you are more likely IME to sound pants without one.

[icastle]

We only play a handful of pub gigs a year, and when we do, we use a cutdown version of our PA and use it purely for vocals and kick drum.

This is partly logistical as we don't want to spend hours setting up our full rig for the sake of £300, but it also gives us an easy differentiation between what we charge for a pub gig and what we charge for a full blown function with a FOH engineer.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Krysbass' timestamp='1409656934' post='2541874']...Our drummer hits his kit very hard (insists he cant play any quieter) ...
[/quote]

Then, by definition, he's not a drummer. He's a lumberjack. [size=4] [/size]

[size=4]( ... and yes, you can tell him I said so. A [i]good[/i] drummer can always play softly...)[/size]

[Les]

I really don't get this view that if you have nobody FOH riding the desk then putting it all through the PA is a waste of time.

It's obviously better but if there isn't one then the idea of someone going out front to check the balance works exactly the same for both
scenarios.

I'd hazard a guess that those of us advocating a quieter on stage sound also have some vocal duties to perform as well.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1409661158' post='2541927']
I really don't get this view that if you have nobody FOH riding the desk then putting it all through the PA is a waste of time.

It's obviously better but if there isn't one then the idea of someone going out front to check the balance works exactly the same for both
scenarios.

I'd hazard a guess that those of us advocating a quieter on stage sound also have some vocal duties to perform as well.
[/quote]

Yes, this is the case with our band. Several of us also double as FOH techs for festivals and other events. If there's no FOH tech at our gigs, we'll do it ourselves. We have enough experience and common sense to not need to be constantly riding the faders, and don't go 'blowing it' with hostile volume changes at backline. It can be done, and done well.
As for OP: In a pub, we'd have vox and a smidgin of kick in the PA, tops only. Certainly not guitars and bass. It would be up to band members to know how loud (or rather, how [i]softly[/i]..!) to play. One doesn't need, nor want, stadium volume in a pub.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Dad3353

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1409660394' post='2541918']
Then, by definition, he's not a drummer. He's a lumberjack. [size=4] [/size]

[size=4]( ... and yes, you can tell him I said so. A [i]good[/i] drummer can always play softly...)[/size]
[/quote]

I've played a few times with a drummer who did the 'minimalist and quiet' thing and it was a complete revelation. It's difficult to describe but he actually had more presence that the tub-thumping-wall-of-sound type approach even though he was leaving loads of space. I guess it's a similar thing to when bassists refer to supporting the song instead of 'widdling' about all the time. Fewer notes/hits but all spot on and in their rightful place. As I say, it was a revelation and left me grinning like a Cheshire Cat. He didn't have a million cymbals either

[Dad3353]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1409662959' post='2541951']...He didn't have a million cymbals either
[/quote]

[size=4] [/size]

[r16ktx]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1409663562' post='2541957']
...He didn't have a million cymbals either
[size=4] [/size]
[/quote]
I played a while with a drummer who thought it a good idea to double cymbals up, everything he played sounded like a dustbin fight - he thought it funny when I said this tho...

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1409657316' post='2541880']
Out. They are pubs ffs, not arenas.

Keep the volume to sensible levels & LISTEN TO EACH OTHER.
[/quote]
The funny thing is I actually agree with this but I'm not the one taking a thousand watt amp,a Mackie pa and a pair of subs to the pub am I?

If the venue size warrants that gear then it should be able to go through the pa no problem what else are the subs for else?

Even if you are controlling the overall sound from the stage area you need to set the levels with or without it going through the desk the only difference being to get an even sound around the room the stage area sound will be compromised without a bit of everything in the pa, usually ending in a volume war and an empty pub. Again this only applies to a pub large enough to require the full pa.

Edited September 2, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[ubit]

Thing is the term pub can mean a lot of different things. The usual place we play is quite big with a big bar in the middle. We have to set up in front of the bar with the PA pointing down each side. The place gets very busy, so bands have to be loud to compete with the shouting. This is why we go through a PA . If I was to stay out, bass would be coming down one side and guitar down the other. I agree, in small venues where you are right in front of the punters, by all means use a PA for just vocs, but if you are using subs, then use subs properly and get a nice punch. It does not need to be really loud to sound good, just nicely balanced. We also don't have a FOH guy but we are all experienced enough to set the levels and get a good sound

[Dad3353]

[quote name='r16ktx' timestamp='1409665833' post='2541987']
I played a while with a drummer who thought it a good idea to double cymbals up, everything he played sounded like a dustbin fight - he thought it funny when I said this tho...
[/quote]

Yes, that's called 'stacking', used extensively in 'indus' styles (eg: Einstürzende Neubauten...). Less popular with jazz drummers, except for 'one-off' dramatic or comic effect. Note the use of 'one-off' and 'comic'. [size=4] [/size]

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1409661158' post='2541927']
I'd hazard a guess that those of us advocating a quieter on stage sound also have some vocal duties to perform as well.
[/quote]

Yup! I always sing some backing vox and sometimes lead on a few songs depending on who I'm helping out.

In my experience if you want a really good sound, heard clearly throughout the venue, then everything needs to go through the PA. The balance, projection and detail (eg from miked drums) are so much better. Of course there are all kinds of other options, and if you have really good backline and tiny PA then 'vocals only' might be the way to go for the PA.
Oh, and FOH sound can be tweaked by band members stepping out front to listen (long lead or wireless) if you've no sound engineer.

[Dropzone]

All very interesting and useful comments. We do our own sound and are well know for being loud. It is hard to get a mosh pit going at low volume.

I do like the idea of dropping the on stage volume and using the subs to reduce everything on stage and make things just that bit easier to hear. I suppose very little apart from the bass drum goes through the subs so they would be working harder but the cross over should leave the bass in the subs only.

[Les]

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1409669124' post='2542028']
All very interesting and useful comments. We do our own sound and are well know for being loud. It is hard to get a mosh pit going at low volume.[/quote]

If that's what the punters need then give it to them, you don't have to share their pain though.

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1409669124' post='2542028']
I do like the idea of dropping the on stage volume and using the subs to reduce everything on stage and make things just that bit easier to hear.[/quote]

If you've never experienced this it's a revelation

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1409669124' post='2542028']
I suppose very little apart from the bass drum goes through the subs so they would be working harder but the cross over should leave the bass in the subs only.
[/quote]

You'd be surprised how much of your bass sound is sent to the tops by the crossover.

[ubit]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1409680357' post='2542193']






You'd be surprised how much of your bass sound is sent to the tops by the crossover.
[/quote]

Yip, but it's not going to blow your speakers as long as they are half decent, the real low register is handled by the subs. As I said before, you don't need to be ear splitting loud through tops and subs. You can have a nice balance, but still be reasonably quiet.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1409647164' post='2541750']
Agree with JT above, but...Engineer or not out front, that backline still needs to be balanced and nobody onstage has the faintest idea how it sounds out front using either method.
I prefer everything in the P.A, and have steered my bands equipment that way with a slightly larger P.A, but less backline.
As an engineer, I want more control over FOH levels, and that means quieter backline, I did a 5 band festi type gig last week and the biggest problem was the massive
Ampeg rig all the bassists loved playing through, but I couldn't balance the mix, because whatever I did, there was simply too much bass guitar.
it was very very loud, and asking, then telling the bassist to turn it down to acceptable levels got the stock phrase "but I can hardly hear it now",to which I replied, yes, but then you can hardly hear anything now because you've just had that thing on full a couple of feet away.
So my theory is, balancing the rig when that DOESN'T involve telling someone the volume they just got used to onstage is too loud,ie:(pulling a fader on the FOH mixer) is a far easier option.
I also find it next to impossible to get a decent vocal monitor setup when you have to compete with a backline that's being used to fill the venue, yet is only a meter away.
When the band know everything is in the P.A, they are a lot more relaxed about "being heard in the mix,man".
Having said all that, many people get great results using JTs method, and save the P.A for the vox.
[/quote]

Funnily enough our best sound gigs, by common consent have been in pubs with full P.A. The only one who doesn't get to
go thru the P.A is me as the Bass so I tend to have to take a pokey rig. Our problem is the keys as they push the volume up and
there is a battle with the vox monitoring. Out front it is ok... but the vocalist has to push his voice hard. This is not good vocally long term, at all. We have been using a dep key for the last few gigs and the 'stage' sound is quieter ... but also he hasn't been able to get out front much as we have no reference of how loud he is. All my Zoom recording of gigs have been a simple affair of position, set-up and go
and we do FAR better with our method that we have with the last few Engr'd jobs. This I find odd... but unfortunately, on the evidence of the
recordings AND hearsay. I do firmly believe that our 'engr'd lash-up has produced better results. The P.A's we have sued have been Nexo/engr'd. EAW/engr'd.EV/engr'd and RCF/EV/engr'd. Our P.A ( QSC/RCF/Yamaha ) would not have been man enough to do those
gigs anyway.
Our default mic-up is Gtr and Key bleed, Kick and O/H but we may add a snare mic depending on the stage size and Vox plus 2 BV's.
I am stating how it is not how I want it to be.... but we do get compliments on our sound but it takes the gtr to be vigilant with the levels.
The stage sound is mixed so I fit with the kit, and the gtr and keys are layered. We hear everything and mix from the backline.
It works... not a perfect way of doing it but it keeps the exes down and we are known for a very good sound, but that seems to get lost
when we are engr'd with a hired-in P.A. What that says about the engrs and P.A ... ???

[mrtcat]

JTUK can you explain "bleed"? (purely my ignorance).

We work in a similar way in that we use tops and subs (all good quality) and I put keys, kick, guitar and 5x vox through. Our drummer is loud and usually gets louder during gig. Bass only ever goes in PA with an engineer. Any band with keys really needs subs IMO and if you're putting kick through at least one sub is essential as a minimum.

My biggest issue is the drummer. He's so loud that a quiet stage is like a mystical paradise we can only dream of.

[stingrayPete1977]

One of my bands has electric drums, weird on stage as you can talk at normal volume to each other while the pa deafens the audience!

Bleed is where the mics pick up other instruments, in this case the keys and other instruments can be heard via the singers mic coming from the pa a bit 'bleeding' out, its why some big stages have drums behind a screen afaik, vocal booths for live recording to keep a clean vocal track etc.

Edited September 2, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[JTUK]

Bleed is a slight signal of the instrument and also overspill, but aren't using it for overspill on gtrs and keys. The backline does most of the work, but we also re-enforce that
with a little of that instrument in the P.A. This is so it doesn't get into a major fight with the Vox in the P.A.

If you are talking about a 1k P.A with subs, you will have pretty inefficient cabs, and simplistically 250w or so per cab.
This CAN'T take a full signal and do all the work, IMO, so that is why you run the backline to do the bulk and bleed a
signal into the P.A. The bass player will have something like 300w on tap... and the drums are going to be acoustically
loud so a P.A of that size needs all the help it can get. The vox remain the paramount signal into the P.A.

We have found the best way to run the band pretty loud from the back and slightly re-enforce the keys and gtr
for ley parts. Of course, you need to self mix sensibly and you need to have all your core sounds sorted
so they mix/layer well. That way you aren't getting into prolonged EQ'ing..as you basically just need the correct level.
Drums are harder but if your drummer knows how to tune his kit, it is basically the position of the mic that needs sorting.
Same with the O/H..and for that we may use a SM58 as it will pick up a lot of the top of the kit as well.

Edited September 2, 2014 by JTUK