Why buy a bass?

[john_the_bass]

I've been thinking about the basses and guitars I've bought and my reasons for buying them and wondered what your thoughts were.
When I buy a bass (or a guitar for that matter), I have to admit that I do look upon them as buying money - to a certain extent. I've bought in the past stuff that I know I would be able to sell fairly quickly because they're generally popular instruments and at prices that I know I would be able to sell off "cheap" and break even, rather than be saddled with something that I was desperate to sell because I needed the readies in a real hurry. For that reason, I would never buy anything "nichey" or close to bespoke or even a bit unpopular, for a slight fear that it wouldn't sell.

As an example, I bought a Les Paul Standard to use as my main guitar in my covers band - if I'd bought shares in the company I work for at about the same time I bought the LP, the value of my investment would now be about 50% of what I'd bought, but I could sell my LP for at least what I paid for it - obviously current financial climate allowing. Obviously my shares [i]could[/i] go up, but in theory so could the value of my LP, particularly if Gibson UK keep putting the price of the new ones up.

I was wondering all of this as I am in the process of being made redundant and there is a rare chance that if I might not get another job at all for ages and might have to start selling the guitars to pay the bills. I've not got anything that's got any real emotional attachment and the stuff I've bought (P Bass, Stingray, LP, my Martin, etc) I bought because I thought they would retain popularity and hopefully always be in demand.

I suppose the two questions I have are this (and one of them is a bit long winded):

i) There was a piece in the Guardian a couple of weeks ago about buying watches as investments and a couple of examples were cited as being good money makers - stuff that was going to be worth a fair whack in the next 20 years or so, maybe four to fives times the value now. Do you think it's possible to that there are basses out there now - current modern stuff - not vintage - which you could buy, hang onto and never lose any money on? I know it's the $64,000 question and it's almost unanswerable, because we'd all be buying these instruments if there was one and the price would either go up because of the demand or the value would come down because everybody had bought one....
ii) - and this is probably the more realistic question. What makes you buy a bass - do you buy one solely for musical or aesthetic reasons? Do you buy a bass for life or when you get one are you prepared to flip it for the next thing that takes your fancy and be fully prepared to lose money on the deal? Do you wonder what it might be worth in 1, 5, 10, [i]x[/i] years time or are you not really that arsed?

I know I've seen some posts saying their latest acquisition is the best thing they've ever had, yet 5 minutes later it's up for trade and some posts of 30 year old, 1 owner bass porn - this post isn't a judgement on that, it's more an insight into people's bass buying habits and if it's really possibly to buy a readily available, mass produced instrument, and be able to make an investment out of it, whatever that return might be.

Blimey, that's a long post - still, not got anything better to do

[Old Horse Murphy]

[cheddatom]

I bought a bass to play in a band. Then I bought a 6 string because I wanted more strings. It was a cheap bass, but nice to play, and I was fine with that until I saw another 6 string that I HAD to have because I had played the same model in a shop previously, and this one was half the price.

I don't think i'll buy another bass unless it's a fretless of some sort.

EDIT: And I don't intend to sell them ever!

Edited July 28, 2008 by cheddatom

[wateroftyne]

Good questions...

[quote]Do you think it's possible to that there are basses out there now - current modern stuff - not vintage - which you could buy, hang onto and never lose any money on?[/quote]

I don't think anyone knows the answer to that, but IMO the theoretical answer is 'no'. There's always a risk.

[quote]What makes you buy a bass - do you buy one solely for musical or aesthetic reasons?[/quote]

Both, I suppose. I like old basses. I like how they look.. I like amber glow, and patina. I don't like pale white necks.

I also like to know that I'm not losing 50% of the value as soon as I drive it off the forecourt, so to speak. I know that if anything should happen to me *crosses fingers* my family can sell my basses and get a few quid to help them out.

Everyone has different circumstances though.. these suit me.

[Happy Jack]

If it's any sort of investment value you're after, the only relatively safe bet is the obvious - VINTAGE.

There's no way you can ever guarantee that the price of something will go up, in either absolute or relative terms, but you have the best chance of this being so if - whatever it is - they stopped making it a long time ago.

If it's of good quality, and has rarity value, then eventually collectors will latch onto it. A perfect example of this is [b][i]JapCrap[/i][/b]. Already a slightly ironic description just a few years ago, suddenly names like Ibanez, Matsumoku and Fuji Gen Gakki are enough to push prices up to the point where the copy prices are treading on the heels of the real thing.

Find a really good quality bass that currently sells for rubbish money, ideally one that's over 20 years old and which hasn't been made since, and especially one that you're happy to play. After all, you may own it for a long time before the price suddenly rockets and funds your early retirement.

The great 'near miss' of recent times was SGC Nanyo Bass Collection. If only they hadn't sold the name. If Bass Collections had been made by SGC Nanyo in Japan between 1988-95 and then just ceased production, by now they'd be cult basses costing loadsamoney.

Instead, the progressively cheaper and worse copies churned out over the last 15 years have left the high-quality originals changing hands at ridiculously low prices.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='john_the_bass' post='249706' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:05 PM']Blimey, that's a long post - still, not got anything better to do [/quote]

yes, yes it is!

I'll kick off, as I've got funk-all better to do too!

When I buy a bass, it's either cos it's shiny, pretty, cheap, a bargain, or any/all of the above. I don't consider the resale value, as to be honest, I've never sold any of my bass'!

I'm half-hoping that my SUB5'll be worth something in 20yrs as it's not in production any more, but that's pretty pie-in-the-sky! lol!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='249727' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:14 PM']I know that if anything should happen to me *crosses fingers* my family can sell my basses and get a few quid to help them out.[/quote]

I think life insurance is a much better bet. This is not a great reason to buy a bass IMHO.

[john_the_bass]

HJ - yes I see what you're saying, I suppose it's not necessarily that the value of the instrument is going to go up, but that there's a guarantee that it's not going to go down - of course I don't necessarily mean buying new, but buying at a price which is pretty much the fair value of said instrument.

As an example I have a 2005 USA Fender Precision - I paid £550 for it and I reckon, even in a crappy market, that marketed properly I could get £550 for it, even though if you look hard enough you can get lucky and pick one up for maybe £450?
I'm not saying go out and buy a new one for what, £900? and expect it to still be worth 900 quid in 12 month's time - but do you know what I mean?

I face not having any money very shortly - I hope it's not going to happen and I'm pretty sure it won't, but if it does, I'm going to have to start selling stuff off - to use my P Bass as an example, if I'd spent that £550 on shares and I had to sell those off at what they're currently worth, they'd only be about £300-worth now.
Likewise, if I'd bought my 'Ray at full UK secondhand value when I did, it would probably have cost me about what - £900 early last year? I imported mine from the US at about the value they are now, so if I was desperate to sell it, I probably won't lose any or much cash on it - but I'd be facing a hit if I was desperate to sell and had picked up a UK bass

Does that make sense or am I talking out of my bottom?

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='249743' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:21 PM']I think life insurance is a much better bet. This is not a great reason to buy a bass IMHO.[/quote]

not so easy to play on stage tho...

[thebeat]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='249743' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:21 PM']I think life insurance is a much better bet.[/quote]



I've always found that life insurance has such crap sustain though?

Buying a quality bass (or two, three, four, five) gives you pleasure and an investment of sorts. Got to admit that when buying my Ric that i bought a colour that i knew would be collectable in the future, if not now. I would also say that Rickenbackers, both vintage and new are quite sound investments because of RIC's inability, or indifference, to meet demand.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='249743' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:21 PM']I think life insurance is a much better bet. This is not a great reason to buy a bass IMHO.[/quote]

I never thought of life insurance. I am such an idiot. Thanks for the suggestion.

If I pop my clogs, they'll thank me more for leaving behind something they can sell, rather than a un-saleable coffee table with strings or something which has devalued to next-to-nowt. It's a happy bonus, s'all.

Edited July 28, 2008 by wateroftyne

[Machines]

My main reason for buying a bass is because I want it. I do take into account popularity / resale value if the need ever arose to sell it on. For example there are some brands I would try to avoid unless I was 100% sure I wouldn't sell it for a decent price.

I'll admit though, I have bought gear on the cheap for the sole purpose of profit.

[cheddatom]

I don't mean to make an issue, I just don't think that it's something people consider when they're buying a bass.

I suppose to some people, a bass is an investment, and they may consider every investment they make a contribution to their "will".

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='john_the_bass' post='249748' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:25 PM']As an example I have a 2005 USA Fender Precision - I paid £550 for it and I reckon, even in a crappy market, that marketed properly I could get £550 for it, even though if you look hard enough you can get lucky and pick one up for maybe £450?
I'm not saying go out and buy a new one for what, £900? and expect it to still be worth 900 quid in 12 month's time - but do you know what I mean?

Does that make sense or am I talking out of my bottom?[/quote]

It does make sense but you forget inflation.
I bought a bass of here second hand for 600 off warwickhunt a few months back. Now say next year i chop my hand off and want to sell it. At the current interest rate selling it for less than around 630 is a loss. 661.5 the year after and so on.
the reality is that apart from 'vintage' stuff ie premium stuff that already has had a value system mapped out (and that will ramp up) you are at best guessing it will not depreciate too much.
buy stuff that is well made, will last and you enjoy and the rest will look after itself


EDIT: Thats an example btw- bluey is MINE!

Edited July 28, 2008 by LukeFRC

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='249766' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:39 PM']I don't mean to make an issue, I just don't think that it's something people consider when they're buying a bass.[/quote]

They do. I did.

[john_the_bass]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='249780' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:58 PM']It does make sense but you forget inflation.
I bought a bass of here second hand for 600 off warwickhunt a few months back. Now say next year i chop my hand off and want to sell it. At the current interest rate selling it for less than around 630 is a loss. 661.5 the year after and so on.[/quote]

Ah ok - you make a good point, but I'm looking at it in simple terms of buying it for [i]x[/i] and then selling it again for [i]x[/i]

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='john_the_bass' post='249798' date='Jul 28 2008, 05:16 PM']Ah ok - you make a good point, but I'm looking at it in simple terms of buying it for [i]x[/i] and then selling it again for [i]x[/i][/quote]

From a "pure" investment point of view, you'd need to allow for inflation, for the opportunity cost of the money you could have made if you'd - say - put the same amount in a savings account or whatever, maybe start to get into Discounted Cashflow Analysis and a whole bunch of other over-complicated bullshit.

If what you want is to be able to sell for more than, or about the same as, you paid, then cheap is the way to go.

Don't invest £5k in a vintage Fender, invest £5k in 20 or 30 good-quality but cheap basses from the 60s/70s/80s. If they're cheap now, it's because they're not fashionable. If they're not fashionable now, they MIGHT become so in due course.

Meanwhile, you'll have endless fun playing obscure basses.

DON'T TAKE ALL THIS TOO SERIOUSLY!

Edited July 28, 2008 by Happy Jack

[budget bassist]

I only have two basses at the moment, and they're my first two actually decent basses. I didn't pay much for them, £200 and £350 both used. I don't like buying new basses a whole lot, mainly because i can't afford them, and they depreciate so much, i don't want to lose too much money. I'm pretty confident that when the economy gets a bit better i could make my money back on my SUB bass and maybe even make a bit of a profit on my tobias. When i look for a bass though i take a number of things into consideration, things such as price, looks, sound, playability etc etc. Resale value didn't cross my mind as much because i don't think i'll sell them ever, but i know that if i needed to i could and not make a huge loss. Though i was thinking that the SUB bass might rocket in value in 20 years from now, but that's just speculation, i really don't care.

[Stan_da_man]

I think anyone who buys an OLP (especially the MM22 or MM32) will be sitting on a goldmine in 20 years time.

[Dubs]

I don’t think there’s any new basses you can buy now that you can guarantee will go up in value in the future, except for old vintage stuff like pre CBS Fenders etc…(already mentioned).
There’s a risk in everything, but I think buying limited editions and rarer newish basses/guitars would limit this risk. I think a good recent example of this would be the Gibson Les Paul Robot; they did a limited first run of 500 blue ones. If the ‘Robot’ takes off and sells loads and becomes popular then you can almost guarantee that those 500 originals are going be worth a bucket load in 20, 30, 40 years time. Those first 500 might be worth a lot in a future anyway due to the rarity factor even if the Robot system doesn’t take off.
A good friend of mines dad is a guitar collector. He buys lots of vintage Fenders but he’s also bought a couple of the top spec 40th and 50th anniversary Strats which he’s pretty much kept in the cases and stored them away. I don’t necessarily agree with buying instruments purely as an investment and making sure they never see the light of day so they retain maximum resale value, but that would be the way to do it, but be prepared to wait a long time for the investment to mature on newer guitars – bit of an obvious one that.

In all honesty I don’t have a clue what might be worth a lot in the future. I like to buy expensive instruments (£600 +) knowing that if push came to shove and I had to sell one for cash that I’d be able to get the vast majority of money back on it (if not all or more) taking into consideration the condition it’s in when I bought it and the condition it’s in when I come to sell it. The same applies to expensive gear such as amps and effects etc…

Edited July 28, 2008 by benwhiteuk

[OutToPlayJazz]

Some interesting thinking there, John. I have a dabble occasionally into buying and selling the odd bass, but I'm being quite cautious at the moment, what with the market being rather flat!

Mainly I buy them to play. I look at each one as a tool of my trade. If I can't justify it being around, it has to go. For example, I bought a black Hofner Contemporary series bass last summer which I've now traded in against my Marcus Miller. The Hofner was bought for a supposed 60's set which worked about twice. I'm more likely to use my Precision for such jobs, so that's infinitely more useful as an all rounder.

The next one in question is my KingBass which sits prettily in it's case at the moment. My "signature" bass since 1990 has been the Status SII (I'll have three of those operational soon) so the KingBass, nice though it is, is looking pretty surplus to requirements.

KingBass Artist, anyone?

[thumperbob 2002]

[quote name='john_the_bass' post='249748' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:25 PM']HJ - yes I see what you're saying, I suppose it's not necessarily that the value of the instrument is going to go up, but that there's a guarantee that it's not going to go down - of course I don't necessarily mean buying new, but buying at a price which is pretty much the fair value of said instrument.

As an example I have a 2005 USA Fender Precision - I paid £550 for it and I reckon, even in a crappy market, that marketed properly I could get £550 for it, even though if you look hard enough you can get lucky and pick one up for maybe £450?
I'm not saying go out and buy a new one for what, £900? and expect it to still be worth 900 quid in 12 month's time - but do you know what I mean?

I face not having any money very shortly - I hope it's not going to happen and I'm pretty sure it won't, but if it does, I'm going to have to start selling stuff off - to use my P Bass as an example, if I'd spent that £550 on shares and I had to sell those off at what they're currently worth, they'd only be about £300-worth now.
Likewise, if I'd bought my 'Ray at full UK secondhand value when I did, it would probably have cost me about what - £900 early last year? I imported mine from the US at about the value they are now, so if I was desperate to sell it, I probably won't lose any or much cash on it - but I'd be facing a hit if I was desperate to sell and had picked up a UK bass

Does that make sense or am I talking out of my bottom?[/quote]

Some shares and funds have done very well- returning well over what a bass can make. However as a bass is a tool- it is what you can make with it that counts- i must`ve earnt in excess of £100,000 with my old musicman and trace elliot- these instruments owe me nothing and I part exd them for a Warwick that I enjoy playing but do not gig with. Go Figure!!

I was always told that do not mix business with pleasure but sometimes the lines get blurred!!

cheers

Bob

[tauzero]

[quote name='john_the_bass' post='249706' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:05 PM']Do you think it's possible to that there are basses out there now - current modern stuff - not vintage - which you could buy, hang onto and never lose any money on?[/quote]
Almost certain. There is just the one slight problem - working out what they are. The quality of the instrument is, after all, no guide whatsoever - late 80s Warwicks are going for a song and 70s Fenders are fetching huge sums.

[quote name='john_the_bass' post='249706' date='Jul 28 2008, 04:05 PM']What makes you buy a bass - do you buy one solely for musical or aesthetic reasons? Do you buy a bass for life or when you get one are you prepared to flip it for the next thing that takes your fancy and be fully prepared to lose money on the deal?[/quote]
I buy them based on a wide range of reasons. When I do, I don't do so with the intention of selling them on, but I won't keep one hanging round that I don't get on with that well. There's an element of bonding there - I'm comfortable with the two Warwicks and the Tsai fretted 5 and 7, but the other instruments might get sold at some point.

I don't buy a bass with resale value in mind (although I wouldn't buy one for a ridiculously inflated price, so I suppose that does avoid them making too much of a loss if I do have to sell them).