How Long at the Pub?

[FinnDave]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1410218864' post='2547338']
We're often up in Reading so I'll keep an eye open to see if you are on when we are up that way.

Cheers
[/quote]

Cheers, Phil, keep an eye on our facebook page for details of gigs. And if you bring along any Babe Ruth records or CDs, Jenny will be happy to sign them for you, she still loves to chat about the band.

Edited September 9, 2014 by FinnDave

[JTUK]

[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1410215853' post='2547314']
As the bass player in a three piece (all right, sometimes + harmonica player) that gigs around Brighton and the surrounding area I find your tone quite patronising. Have you seen all these bands that "aren't that good" and "Not worth their fee"? Three piece is hard work - you have to make it interesting. As for the price - we play at one particular venue that's renowned for music, and the punters go there because they expect to be entertained (they even turn their chairs to face the band when you strike up - I kid you not. The first time I played there, only my second gig ever, I was petrified) it's tiny and they have a flat rate of £100+ a jug. You can have as many in the band as you like, or be whoever you want -that's it. Don't like it, fine, don't play there. Oh, and by the way, Gary Moore played there regularly -if it was good enough for him..... and as for lights, well, if you want flashing lights, why not just go clubbing.
[/quote]

Yep, I have seen them, that is why I make the comment. 3 piece is very hard work for the band and I would say pretty hard work on the audience
and solo after solo from a gtr in the same genre isn't going to stay interesting for very long, IMO.
The comment about lights is almost throw away but then the standard of the day round here is to make that effort and bands that don't are judged
on presentation as much as anything else. The music needs to be good as does the overall show.
I think the LL's book them because they are cheap..or can be... and therefore he robs Peter to pay Paul on his band nights.
This makes room for the better bands. Of course, the number in the band garauntees nothing but as far as top of the tree goes, I don't think there are any 3 piece bands around here that are near it, IMO. And I make a point of seeing a LOT of bands here.

Edited September 9, 2014 by JTUK

[Bassman Steve]

Poor old Rory, Jimi, Eric et al. Still, one must have standards eh?

[JTUK]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1410218918' post='2547339']
Of course there isn’t – different strokes for different folks, etc! What some people like JT don’t like is that the guitar player is very often pushed to the front in a three piece (but not always by any means) as there is no singer-frontman to share the limelight or a keys player to share solos and the tenor or high musical registers. They also don’t like that someone in a trio will make twice as much as those in a six piece playing the same gig and have less gear to cart around and probably need less rehearsal, etc!

I like trios; both to play in and to listen to. There is definitely a knack to playing in a three piece – knowing where to create space and how to fill it when necessary. Not everybody can manage to pull that off…!

I would also agree that I would much rather play to a crowd that have specifically come to listen to a particular band playing music (in a pub or elsewhere) rather than just be the entertainment at a party where you have to try and please everyone in the room, even though they may all have completely different musical tastes…
[/quote]
I am not so worried about what people make ...and I don't consider pub money as a goal. We all do it and we play a few pubs throughout the year and they serve a purpose, but they aren't what we target. Our focus is on a party set anyway, and we don't do out and out functions as such as we don't want to play that stuff. Other bands may be better set up to follow that path but we do do a handfui of weddings a year and we pretty much insist the bookers have seen us because we don't do requests or alter our set much at all. What we would lose in a pub we more than make up on festivals and party type gigs which put us in a different money league than pub fees but my point is that the 3 piece bands are probably worth what we are worth per man if they are good.... and that makes them a cheap option for the LL.
I make it my business to know all about the local bands that can draw and charge ticket money and how many they sell at and there is a differnce between good and popular. It helps if you are both, of course, but generally popular wins out.

[FinnDave]

We have played as a three piece once or twice, the main thing I noticed was how much less space we needed compared to our usual 5 piece. That makes a lot of difference in a small pub, more room for paying punters!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1410251779' post='2547433']
Poor old Rory, Jimi, Eric et al. Still, one must have standards eh?
[/quote]

If you had a Rory or Jimi in your band, you'd have a point. I am guessing you don't, of course.

[Happy Jack]

There's an awful lot of tosh talked about 3-piece bands, isn't there?

What does that expression even mean?

Any supposedly 4-piece band with a dedicated singer can be thought of as a 3-piece band, so to Rory, Jimi, Eric [i]et al[/i] you can immediately add The Who and The Monkees ... can't remember many Monkees hits with extended guitar solos but then I'm getting old.

[phil.c60]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1410253171' post='2547452']
There's an awful lot of tosh talked about 3-piece bands, isn't there?

What does that expression even mean?

Any supposedly 4-piece band with a dedicated singer can be thought of as a 3-piece band, so to Rory, Jimi, Eric [i]et al[/i] you can immediately add The Who and The Monkees ... can't remember many Monkees hits with extended guitar solos but then I'm getting old.
[/quote]

Yes, there certainly is. Re the comment about endless guitar solos - most guitar players who sing that I've ever seen (note the most) play a rhythm part during the verses, ie when they are singing and then solos in the solo spots - just like any other band, really.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1410253171' post='2547452']
There's an awful lot of tosh talked about 3-piece bands, isn't there?

What does that expression even mean?

Any supposedly 4-piece band with a dedicated singer can be thought of as a 3-piece band, so to Rory, Jimi, Eric [i]et al[/i] you can immediately add The Who and The Monkees ... can't remember many Monkees hits with extended guitar solos but then I'm getting old.
[/quote]

I agree, same applies, but we do need to make the distinction between pub bands and Name bands.

[Bassman Steve]

The distinction is surely the ability of the player and not the environment.

[r16ktx]

"... a three piece, ya know, three musicians and a singer". Said, I believe, by Rudy Sarzo sometime in the eighties. :-)

[JTUK]

[quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1410254202' post='2547463']
The distinction is surely the ability of the player and not the environment.
[/quote]

Of course it is.... but getting that quality in a pub is few and far between, IME.
And I must say that the 3 piece gtr bands tend to have a handy gtr player, but still not good enough
to maintain the interest over a long period of time in the set, IMO. And..it also depends how interesting the bass and drums
can be, but you'll often find the gtr kingpin doesn't want anything too fancy from them... so it comes down to
the gtr solo show...
If the gtr can sing, then that is a bonus but not a given.

From an economics POV, this can work for the gtr as they may easily get £70 per head, and if they work hard, and do a few lessons, sell CD's
they may make some sort of living. The band leader/gtr may even take a bigger slice of the monies but it seems a pretty soul destroying gig IMO.
And... I've done them but I want something more interesting and I do find them 'lacking' for sure.

[Doddy]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1410211320' post='2547250']

I don’t see why you think it matters how many are in the band?? Punters just want to see an entertaining band – they couldn’t care less if it is a three piece or an eight piece, just as long as they are good!

There is no reason why a landlord should pay a band with a full brass section, two keyboard players & a Latin rhythm section any more than a three piece, nor should he concern himself whether the band is full time or consists of semi-pros. The only thing he cares about is are they any good and more importantly, can they draw a crowd in his boozer (as you say in the first half of your post)! Talking about how many members are in the band just confuses matters and is completely irrelevant...
[/quote]
I think the number of band members can certainly be a factor when you are looking at prices.
One of the bands I regularly work with does a few (6 or 7) pub/club dates a year and the price we ask for is based
on x amount per man. If places want to put on an 8 piece professional band, they are generally prepared to pay more
than they would to a 4 piece.

[peteb]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1410260556' post='2547531']

I think the number of band members can certainly be a factor when you are looking at prices.
One of the bands I regularly work with does a few (6 or 7) pub/club dates a year and the price we ask for is based
on x amount per man. If places want to put on an 8 piece professional band, they are generally prepared to pay more
than they would to a 4 piece.
[/quote]
Why??

Surely their only concern is how many punters the band draw, not if they need eight musicians to achieve that or if they can manage with four!

Strange way of doing business...

[Doddy]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1410261334' post='2547539']

Why??

Surely their only concern is how many punters the band draw, not if they need eight musicians to achieve that or if they can manage with four!

Strange way of doing business...
[/quote]
It depends what they want. I'm sure that many are happy with a 4 piece, but you're going to get something different with an
8 piece with horns.

[peteb]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1410256946' post='2547496']


Of course it is.... but getting that quality in a pub is few and far between, IME.
And I must say that the 3 piece gtr bands tend to have a handy gtr player, but still not good enough
to maintain the interest over a long period of time in the set, IMO. And..it also depends how interesting the bass and drums
can be, but you'll often find the gtr kingpin doesn't want anything too fancy from them... so it comes down to
the gtr solo show...
If the gtr can sing, then that is a bonus but not a given.

From an economics POV, this can work for the gtr as they may easily get £70 per head, and if they work hard, and do a few lessons, sell CD's
they may make some sort of living. The band leader/gtr may even take a bigger slice of the monies but it seems a pretty soul destroying gig IMO.
And... I've done them but I want something more interesting and I do find them 'lacking' for sure.
[/quote]
The most soul destroying gig I can remember was a 5 piece playing Don't You Forget about Me to housewives dancing around their handbags, even if it was a good payer!

In contrast, I played in just the type of three piece band that you are describing and it was great fun! We played lots of gigs to decent audiences all over the country and made a few quid. The gtr was a bit of a one trick pony, but it was a good trick and it helped that he was a natural entertainer (both on and off stage). We never played a song the same twice and songs would evolve the more we played them. We could turn on a musical sixpence in a way that bigger bands just can't do! It certainly sharpened up your playing as well...

[JTUK]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1410262350' post='2547550']
It depends what they want. I'm sure that many are happy with a 4 piece, but you're going to get something different with an
8 piece with horns.
[/quote]

Indeed, we price differently to how we construct the show....
In order to get a better price, we have to give them something that they can't get elsewhere and that may well mean
we put in girlie BV's, a horn section or a sax. This doesn't work in a pub context for us as it is a lot of work for
not a lot of financial gain but we will do it for a special show and for the gig that this tends to matter on, bookers will
take that into account and pay more. So, it is a seliing point for us, and a selling point for them.

[JTUK]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1410265760' post='2547613']
The most soul destroying gig I can remember was a 5 piece playing Don't You Forget about Me to housewives dancing around their handbags, even if it was a good payer!

In contrast, I played in just the type of three piece band that you are describing and it was great fun! We played lots of gigs to decent audiences all over the country and made a few quid. The gtr was a bit of a one trick pony, but it was a good trick and it helped that he was a natural entertainer (both on and off stage). We never played a song the same twice and songs would evolve the more we played them. We could turn on a musical sixpence in a way that bigger bands just can't do! It certainly sharpened up your playing as well...
[/quote]

Yep... and soul destroying is not exclusive to 3 piece bands of course.
Again, we vet the gigs pretty carefully and do them if we fancy them..but we aren't going to deviate too far off plan
just because it is a gig.

But it also helps if the band..however they are constructed.. can bring more than one thing to the party so being a good frontman with great banter is a 'selling' point as much as anything else. My view is that the more sellers you have, the better.

[Phil Starr]

It really isn't a business for most of us though, and this is a thread about pub gigs after all. Even if you got £100 a night each, and that has got to be so rare in a pub you've bought £10,000 of stuff between you and worked from loading at 6.00pm to unloading at 2.00am spent £20 between you on fuel, not to mention the rehearsal and practice time. I doubt we ever earn the minimum wage calculated as an hourly rate.

Most of us just make decisions based upon simple practical expediency plus a big nod to the type of music we want to play, money rarely comes into it, though it is nice to get something.

I've no problem with the solo musician with backing tracks or the many who deliberately decide to go out as a duo or trio just to make it pay a little, or at the other end the function band who go out with brass sections and the juke box set. Everyone's got to make their own decisions and try to make it work. I've seen great trios and great function bands as well as those who probably aren't putting enough in. It's hard enough playing the pubs without other musicians looking down their noses. If you entertain audiences and enjoy what you are doing then good luck to you.

[stingrayPete1977]

I have never once given any thought to the number of members of a band as a punter? They are either good or they are not, in fact that is not fair sometimes they are good but not my cup of rosy that is all. Just because a band has a keys player and a singer that strums a bit of acoustic and some lights that does not make that band any easier to watch than a 3 piece that have covered all the bases IME.

I play in a trio, the guitarist sings and the drummer does BVs.
I play in a quartet with a lady singer doing 40% of main vocals, the drummer does 60% and the guitarist does BVs, visually the 4 piece looks like it would have the bigger sound but it does not.

Nonsense totally IMO and IME, I have been in a band with keys and two guitarist blasting away many times before and we made a noise no worse or better but I got less money at the end of the night

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1410281672' post='2547809']
It really isn't a business for most of us though, and this is a thread about pub gigs after all. Even if you got £100 a night each, and that has got to be so rare in a pub you've bought £10,000 of stuff between you and worked from loading at 6.00pm to unloading at 2.00am spent £20 between you on fuel, not to mention the rehearsal and practice time. I doubt we ever earn the minimum wage calculated as an hourly rate.

Most of us just make decisions based upon simple practical expediency plus a big nod to the type of music we want to play, money rarely comes into it, though it is nice to get something.

I've no problem with the solo musician with backing tracks or the many who deliberately decide to go out as a duo or trio just to make it pay a little, or at the other end the function band who go out with brass sections and the juke box set. Everyone's got to make their own decisions and try to make it work. I've seen great trios and great function bands as well as those who probably aren't putting enough in. It's hard enough playing the pubs without other musicians looking down their noses. If you entertain audiences and enjoy what you are doing then good luck to you.
[/quote]

Great post IMO, in reality if I change both sets of strings on my EUB and DB thats 4 gigs with a £75 cut from each one, hardly going to make a living from it am I? If I had more gigs I would just buy more basses, I go to work to pay my bills

[JTUK]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1410282136' post='2547814']
I have never once given any thought to the number of members of a band as a punter? They are either good or they are not, in fact that is not fair sometimes they are good but not my cup of rosy that is all. Just because a band has a keys player and a singer that strums a bit of acoustic and some lights that does not make that band any easier to watch than a 3 piece that have covered all the bases IME.

............
[/quote]

I'd say it really should make them easier to watch, IMV...but if it doesn't then that is that bands fault.
As you say, a bad band is a bad band and any amount of gimmicks will not save them, for sure.
We will think about augmenting the band as it is something different and it will be on a ticketed gig.
Doing that at the local pub is no use at all as the pub gig is hard work for the money in the first place..
and then there is the question of space etc etc..so it's a non-starter.
Adding to the line-up makes our regular 'fans' more willing to pay for something different and we think this is worth
the money and the effort but it needs to be thought through as it is likely to cost you upwards of £250.
How many times can you do this throughout the year, depends..? but we will do 3-4 times if the gig can afford it.
To do it in a pub, you'd want a friday night..as people are cheaper then generally, but you'd still be needing the pub to pay
£500 plus and it is just not worth the hassle as the pub will REALLY stress about wether they can afford it. Not fun at all for pub work.

Funnily enough, the only act that can charge that fee in a pub that I know of, is a Disco...

Edited September 9, 2014 by JTUK

[blue]

Bar bands over here in the US, standard is 4 hours and maybe two 15 minute breaks. 8-12 isn't so bad. This Friday we have a 9:30pm-1:30am and not on the best side of town.

Blue

[Weststarx]

[quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1410040624' post='2545660']


I guess you guys that play longer are getting more than our standard £600 for these gigs?
[/quote]

we get £100-£150 to split between 5 of us...

[JTUK]

£10ph per man must be minimum... and you'd like to include the travel time in that
but not always possible with pubs.