Every child to learn an instrument?

[Weststarx]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1410339709' post='2548218']
Nah I dont agree either. I dont think it should be made manditory.

It is a great skill to have, but I think kids should be concentrating on life skills & standard education. An extra curricular subject is fine but having to learn an instrument would be in my mind a bad idea.
For instance I showed no interest at all at school about learning an instrument (I couldnt even play a triangle....no joke I failed at the triangle) but after I left school I started considering my love for music & the possibility of creating it for myself.

If I'd been made to learn an instrument at school, I doubt I'd have enjoyed it very much.
[/quote]

I feel like fumps is me on another account sometimes...

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 22, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[GrammeFriday]

Yes, absolutely. The petition (see link in OP) is asking the government to deliver on its promise to to give every child the [b]opportunity [/b]to learn an instrument.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1410345005' post='2548310']
There are no ad hominem attacks going on here as far as I can see - the criticisms are being levelled at ideas, not people. I was not offended by flyfisher's post - on the contrary, I'm enjoying the debate.
[/quote]

I was actually referring to your gratuitous put-down at post #3.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

[fumps]

Just to clear up to grammeFriday, As he seems to not really understand.

"Life skills" when mentioned with my 11 year old sons education: is the application of the skills & knowladge, that he is being taught in school to normal life and practical situations. IE mathamatics for budgeting your financial incomings & outgoings, or even things like estimating a journey time. Basically showing children that their knowladge works together and overlaps into combined knowladge.

Because my son is a very hands on kid, once "Life skills" were applied to his education he actually flourished. It's a very effective teaching tool that is refered to as "Life skills" by his school.
In my day we were mainly shown everything in theory but never had it applied to useful situations, so we were left thinking......what the hell do we use this for?
THe same as long drawn out boring music lessons where we were made to learn to play keyboard by a teacher who hated our guts & was well aware none of us wanted to be there, we always came out thinking that it was a massive waste of time for all involved.

I dont think I've ever heard of any child learning how to tie shoelaces in classes.....Parents usually teach their kids that.

Aruments and name calling seemed to be happening because people have given their opinion & others are getting up-tight.

Edited September 10, 2014 by fumps

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1410348348' post='2548358']
I was actually referring to (GrammeFriday's) gratuitous put-down at post #3.
[/quote]

Yes, that's why I phrased my comment in the same manner, hoping that GrammeFriday would see it as cheeky rather than offensive.

Fortunately he did and replied with a more detailed explanation of what he meant, which turned out to be far more in agreement with my own views than I originally assumed, particularly the primary role of parents in educating their children in the broadest sense of the word and the importance of preserving children's innate sense of wonder and teaching them how to learn for themselves - the most important thing in a fast moving world.

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1410348348' post='2548358']
I was actually referring to your gratuitous put-down at post #3.

But you already knew that, didn't you?


[/quote]
Well, I thought you were referring to that and to flyfisher's riposte at #16, but anyway, I can only speak for myself - I do not presume to speak on behalf of other contributors, or to know whether they were offended or not. If Kerley was offended by #3 then I am genuinely sorry about that - as I said before, my arguments are aimed at ideas, not individuals. Looking back at #3 again, however, I can see that it is very abrupt and should have been expressed in a more diplomatic way. I was in a bit of a rush when I posted it, to be honest - in hindsight I should have waited until later, when I had more time to explain what I mean by "impoverished and naive". Nevertheless, I still maintain my position that an education system that only presents kids with a narrow, utilitarian set of practical skills is a very depressing prospect.

[ambient]

The now thankfully departed education minister even wanted to take art and music out of the national curriculum.

[GrammeFriday]

Need one say more? [size=4] [/size]

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='kerley' timestamp='1410345072' post='2548312']
I would. Once you are past the basics of a subject the goal is solely to be tested on the subject to then get a method of scoring children against each other. While that approach probably isn't going to change why not learn and get tested on subjects that you will actually use in your adult life (mortgages/finance, politics/councils etc,.)
If you wish to go further into maths, physics etc,. because it will lead to a chosen career then do that at A level and Degree levely.

I spent a good amount of my time learning matrices, differentiation, integration and so on and have never come close to using it or even needing to know it exists.
[/quote]
I see what you (and fumps in his last post) mean, but t[size=4]he rationale that I would propose for making kids do all that abstract theoretical stuff is precisely that it has nothing to do with [/size][size=4]direct 'real world' utility at all - what we are doing (or at least trying to do!) when we teach kids theoretical stuff like pure maths is to help them develop the ability to think in an abstract way in general. Once kids have got the knack of abstract conceptual thinking, the hope is that they can then apply it to all manner of practical domains, such as evaluating different mortgages, etc..But maybe it could work the other way too - i.e. kids encounter mathematical concepts implicitly through practical activities, and if they get interested or show an aptitude then they can move on to the more abstract realm. I wonder whether any research has been done on this? Is there an educational theorist in the house? We need some help here![/size]

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1410350760' post='2548392']
I dont think I've ever heard of any child learning how to tie shoelaces in classes.....Parents usually teach their kids that.
[/quote]
You'd be surprised. My wife used to be a supply teacher and she says that a sizeable proportion of the reception year classes she taught could not even get dressed by themselves after PE, let alone tie their own shoelaces. (Although most of them have those velcro fasteners anyway nowadays!)

[kerley]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1410351675' post='2548405']
If Kerley was offended by #3 then I am genuinely sorry about that
[/quote]

Don't worry, no offense taken by me. Never been called naive before - was going to look it up in the dictionary but apparently it is not in there?

[GrammeFriday]

Thanks, Kerley - and to clarify once again, I am not calling you naive!! I'm just expressing doubts about the idea that kids will be better off if we only teach them practical 'real life' skills, and deny them access to stuff like music education.

[BigRedX]

AFAICS teaching modern music at school leads to bands like Coldplay.

Surely no-one whats more of that?

On a more serious note, before I joined the Terrortones I used to play in a more sedate band that included a couple of teachers amongst it's members. As a result we would usually get asked to perform at various school music evening and "battles of the bands". During the 4 evenings that I attended I only saw one pupil play something that they'd written themselves, the rest being poorly rendered cover versions, and whilst the individual technical ability was uniformly far higher than anything I was capable of at that age, the ability to play together as a band was somewhat lacking.

Looking back at my time at school when unless you were sufficiently competent and enthusiastic at playing classical music in the school orchestra, you were left entirely to your own devices when it came to learning an instrument, the innovation and creativity of those of us who were driven enough to learn on our own was far far greater.

Edited September 10, 2014 by BigRedX

[Bilbo]

I have no children but what I would want from an education system is rounded human beings, not 'work units' equipped with the 'skills required by industry'. We already supplement most industry one way or another, why should we fund the training their workforce for them as well? I always thing of the martial arts training where they don't teach you how to fight, they teach you how to LEARN how to fight.

Seriously, though, did anyone watch that TV programme on this subject last night? The shockers for me were, firstly, the 'music teacher' who didn't like music and just f***ed about self consciously with some djembes (waste of her time and the students) and, secondly, the school's budget for literacy (£200 a YEAR for the WHOLE SCHOOL of 160 pupils!!!) FOR LITERACY!!! Same school's budget for music = zero. WTF are they doing with our taxes?

Life skills should be taught by parents, neighbours, nuclear and extended family, friends, siblings etc. If a school offers a session on budgeting, it won't make much difference if the parents are gambling addicts indebted to loan sharks. WHatever the kids learn at home will stick faster, good or bad.

My understanding is that music students are better at other things too inc Maths, English etc It enhances a range of learning related skills that are transferrable to the rest of their education. What is apparent is that the music education in a lot of schools is shocking. The answer is to improve it, not remove it.

[Bassman Steve]

[quote name='kerley' timestamp='1410353900' post='2548451']
Don't worry, no offense taken by me. Never been called naive before - was going to look it up in the dictionary but apparently it is not in there?
[/quote]

Neither is gullible - check and you'll see (ok, so it's an old one). :-)

[kerley]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1410354280' post='2548455']
Thanks, Kerley - and to clarify once again, I am not calling you naive!! I'm just expressing doubts about the idea that kids will be better off if we only teach them practical 'real life' skills, and deny them access to stuff like music education.
[/quote]

Not saying they should be limited to only practical topics but it is a finite pool of money and to me music for all is not good use of that finite pool as only a minority of people will benefit from it. If someone is really interested in playing an instrument then buy one with paper round money, christmas present, junk shop etc, Instruments have never been cheaper.
I was interested in all sorts of things that were good for me when young but that doesn't mean I expected everyone else to be interested to the level that it should be available at school.

[Freddy Le Cragg]

My music teacher actively tried to discourage me from learning guitar because the electric guitar wasn't " a proper instrument".

[charic]

[quote name='Freddy Le Cragg' timestamp='1410355829' post='2548483']
My music teacher actively tried to discourage me from learning guitar because the electric guitar wasn't " a proper instrument".
[/quote]

Were they a bassist?

[fumps]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1410354865' post='2548469']
Seriously, though, did anyone watch that TV programme on this subject last night? The shockers for me were, firstly, the 'music teacher' who didn't like music and just f***ed about self consciously with some djembes (waste of her time and the students) and, secondly, the school's budget for literacy (£200 a YEAR for the WHOLE SCHOOL of 160 pupils!!!) FOR LITERACY!!! Same school's budget for music = zero. WTF are they doing with our taxes?

[/quote]
Ho I know the answer to that. My best mate is a joiner, he was contracted to build a stage for a local primary school. once the stage was built to the education standards (Basically over engineering it to beyond its needed build quality to meet standards set by the EU etc) they had no more budget for anything like music or drama. The budget was spent building the stage to show events that the school could not afford to develop to show on the stage they had built.......makes sense to erm no one.

[winterfire666]

music is an art form, a way to express yourself and so shouldn't be forced on anyone, having the opportunity to learn if you have an interest in it is important but forcing kids into such things is often counter productive in my opinion.
i personally don't like the way art and music are taught in most schools (no offense to any teachers on here) i enjoyed some aspects of both subjects at school but others put me off totally and at that age these experiences can shape your whole outlook.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='winterfire666' timestamp='1410357313' post='2548501']
music is an art form, a way to express yourself ...
[/quote]

Not at the school I went to.

We played BOTH kinds of music, classical and rock.

Classical was for nerds and very embarrassed teenagers who tried to keep quiet about playing the bassoon or the viola.

Rock was for long-haired louts who spent a lot of time posing when there were girls nearby, while holding utterly crap guitars with names like 'Avon'.

Express yourself? Not so much ...

[winterfire666]

thats my point, it should be that way but what schools currently do just doesnt work.

anything that requires creative thinking (as opposed to logical thinking) is poorly approached by our schooling system, for some students it works, but for many it is entirely counterproductive.

Edited September 10, 2014 by winterfire666

[BigRedX]

[quote name='winterfire666' timestamp='1410357796' post='2548509']
thats my point, it should be that way but what schools currently do just doesnt work.

anything that requires creative thinking (as opposed to logical thinking) is poorly approached by our schooling system, for some students it works, but for many it is entirely counterproductive.
[/quote]

That's because I don't think you can teach creative thinking. People either have the ability or they don't.

[GrammeFriday]

OK, so the question - to paraphrase Bilbo - is whether we should improve music education or remove it. (FWIW, I'm with Bilbo's answer to this question.) [edit: this is in response to winterfire666's last post]

Edited September 10, 2014 by GrammeFriday