Every child to learn an instrument?

[winterfire666]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1410358677' post='2548517']
That's because I don't think you can teach creative thinking. People either have the ability or they don't.
[/quote]
i agree but when they do teach a subject with creative aspects the curriculum is too fixed and to deviate from it is to fail in many cases.
this is just plan wrong in my opinion.

[Subbeh]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1410350760' post='2548392']I dont think I've ever heard of any child learning how to tie shoelaces in classes.....Parents usually teach their kids that.[/quote]

I'm honestly amazed at what parents don't teach their children, I know several people who work in main stream primary education and every September they encounter children who cant dress, feed themselves or go to the toilet on their own. My wife works with secondary school children and last year they had a new starter, eleven years old, they had to cut his dinner up for him as he had no experience of using a knife and fork!

As for giving every child the opportunity to learn a musical instrument, I couldn't be more in favour of it. The possible academic and social benefits that come with learning music should be available to all children should they wish to try.

I had no opportunity at primary level, secondary level music lessons were no better, we spent three years copying classical composer's biogs from text books to our workbooks in strict silence. Our hands on experience was occasionally getting to learn something like the theme to eastenders on a tiny keyboard using numbers to reference the keys. I honsetly think our music teacher truly hated what she did, refused to teach us to read music when we asked and also wouldn't arrange lessons that we were more than willing to pay for.

I was talking to a music teacher at a college a few years ago who asked where I'd gone to school, he then asked about the music teacher, I told him exactly how little she tried and that she seemed to have nothing but contempt for music and her pupils. Got a little awkward when he told me she was his wife but I hope he passed on the gist of it.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Subbeh

[fumps]

I think I should re-phrase the above quote to
I dont think I've ever heard of any child learning how to tie shoelaces in classes.....Any good Parent should teach their kids that.

For instance my son started secondary school & was worried about catching the bus on his own. So I spent several hour's catching the bus up & down his school run on Saturday so he felt confident enough to do it himself. Being a parent isnt rocket science you just have to care enough to try.

Back to the OP. I suppose I was slightly iffy not reading through the point at the start. I dont think it should be a set subject but given it as an option i think is fine. Although in practice I doubt it will work. Schools are struggling with budgets as it is & although I think certain kids would be good and benefit from music the funding will always be an issue.

I asked my boy if he wanted to play an instrument & he just shrugged and told me he would rather play football.......dammit!
I will get him soon enough !!!

[Owencf]

Dont have kids but may yet happen.
I was forced to learn that bloody wind instrument the recorder hated the damn thing and promptly forgot all of it when I went to secondary school.
Along with most of my grammar.
I think for myself and me own
Like ecumenical matters let them make their own minds up and decide on what they want to learn.

Only took 20 years for me to admit i wanted to learn music of some form.

Always had something else to do or see ad ad nauseum

Edited September 10, 2014 by Owencf

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1410350760' post='2548392']
Just to clear up to grammeFriday, As he seems to not really understand.

"Life skills" when mentioned with my 11 year old sons education: is the application of the skills & knowladge, that he is being taught in school to normal life and practical situations. IE mathamatics for budgeting your financial incomings & outgoings, or even things like estimating a journey time. Basically showing children that their knowladge works together and overlaps into combined knowladge.

Because my son is a very hands on kid, once "Life skills" were applied to his education he actually flourished. It's a very effective teaching tool that is refered to as "Life skills" by his school.
In my day we were mainly shown everything in theory but never had it applied to useful situations, so we were left thinking......what the hell do we use this for?
THe same as long drawn out boring music lessons where we were made to learn to play keyboard by a teacher who hated our guts & was well aware none of us wanted to be there, we always came out thinking that it was a massive waste of time for all involved.

I dont think I've ever heard of any child learning how to tie shoelaces in classes.....Parents usually teach their kids that.

Aruments and name calling seemed to be happening because people have given their opinion & others are getting up-tight.
[/quote]
All very knowledgeable stuff

[Doddy]

I think the whole idea of giving kids the opportunity to learn an instrument in school is great. Did anyone see the show
about this last night? The majority of the kids were all really excited to be able to play an instrument.It was great.
I think it's important that kids get the chance to play if they want-not all families can afford to buy instruments, so it's
good that schools are able to offer them the chance. Unfortunately, you get teachers like the one on the show who think
that music is a waste of time.
With regards to teaching creative thinking or with students not writing their own songs-that's not really the point of
this, initially. I've never met a young student (or older) of any instrument that didn't want to learn their favourite songs
and actually learn about music. Later on they may become interested in creating their own music, but the idea of lessons
is to teach them music-reading, basic theory etc-while inspiring them with how it applies to songs/compositions.

[lojo]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1410354865' post='2548469']
If a school offers a session on budgeting, it won't make much difference if the parents are gambling addicts
[/quote]

I agree that if you have a bad home life , a few £ per head budget for music and every student having to hold an in instrument for 30 mins a week so the school ticks a box won't make much difference. Although there will be 1 or 2 who will get inspired where they may not have had a chance.

Id say, firstly make sure there is a school place for all the kids where they have a chance of getting good maths and english results, and that is way off being the case in this country at the moment.

[thisnameistaken]

I think you've got to consider the wider benefits of learning to play an instrument, rather than just focusing on how well the student creates music. I saw they're introducing programming to the curriculum too, which non-programmers might think a bit of a niche pursuit, but like music it will benefit students in so many ways, developing analytical and problem-solving skills. Those will be more valuable than the ability to remember collections of facts...

[flyfisher]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1410361081' post='2548554']
For instance my son started secondary school & was worried about catching the bus on his own. So I spent several hour's catching the bus up & down his school run on Saturday so he felt confident enough to do it himself. Being a parent isnt rocket science you just have to care enough to try.
[/quote]

I really don't have the superlatives to say how great that simple story is! Absolutely fantastic and says everything about what being a good parent is all about. Son comfortable enough to express his concerns, parents taking it seriously and devoting their time to helping him overcome them in his own terms, not simply ignoring the issue and running him to school in the car instead. Simply wonderful stuff.

[skankdelvar]

The 'aim' of the National Plan For Musical Education is - in fact - an ill-defined, underfunded 'pledge' of the type so frequently hawked by incompetent, publicity-obsessed politicians.

Consider the petition's bland affirmation which restates the NPME's anodyne ambition: 'Every child should have the opportunity to play a musical instrument'. Do we ever stop to consider what this might entail and whether the cost is supportable? We do not because we do not really care.

Hostage to mawkish notions of 'creativity' and bereft of rational thought we lend unthinking support to such endeavours for such things 'must be done' because they are 'the right thing to do'.

It is easy - particularly on a politically left-of-centre musicians' forum - to cry 'hope' and 'life-changing'. In truth the benefits of learning a musical instrument as they are stated by proponents of the NPME are entirely collateral and can be achieved through the existing curriculum. If a child wishes to learn a musical instrument, let their parents make the arrangements. This time-honoured approach has much to recommend it.

As ever, a politically inspired and poorly conceived government programme is falling by the wayside. I imagine most of those who wish to reinvigorate the initiative either have a sectional interest as a musician (as does the petition-starter) or simply wish for reasons of personal politics to perpetuate the socialistic fallacy that state centralism is the answer to everything.

Frankly, this was a limp ploy by Tory wets to ingratiate themselves with liberal pinkos. Tragic waste of time and money.

Edited September 10, 2014 by skankdelvar

[ambient]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1410358677' post='2548517']
That's because I don't think you can teach creative thinking. People either have the ability or they don't.
[/quote]

I disagree, creative thinking is something that can be taught, or shown. It's actually something we're born with, but forget how to do.

Watch a very young child, they're full of creativity. My nephew is 3 years old, cardboard box can be anything for him, a car, a plane a spaceship. As he gets older though, it's something that he'll grow out of.

Some people don't lose touch of their creativity, in fact they let it grow and develop, it's down to how they're brought up and what they're encouraged to do, the sort of household they grow up in.

Everyone has the potential to be creative, they just don't know it.

Edited September 10, 2014 by ambient

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1410377458' post='2548829']Consider the petition's bland affirmation which restates the NPME's anodyne ambition: 'Every child should have the opportunity to play a musical instrument'. Do we ever stop to consider what this might entail and whether the cost is supportable? We do not because we do not really care.[/quote]

I've been struggling to figure out where the treasury spends its money for years, I certainly don't seem to be getting much value out of taxation. I'm quite content to fund others' medical treatments and education though, and I'd be happy to see - for example - Trident ditched and that money spent on giving school pupils something more useful to do with their time.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1410387232' post='2549022']
I've been struggling to figure out where the treasury spends its money for years, I certainly don't seem to be getting much value out of taxation. I'm quite content to fund others' medical treatments and education though, and I'd be happy to see - for example - Trident ditched and that money spent on giving school pupils something more useful to do with their time.
[/quote]

Quite so and entirely laudable. For myself, I'd like to see the NPME's £196m budget be given to the poorest 100,000 families in the UK. They could do a lot with a couple of grand in the bin each.

Or we can just give every newborn child a ukulele and pat ourselves on the back for 'giving them hope'.

Edited September 10, 2014 by skankdelvar

[garyod7]

A friend has a son who's looking to study medicine and he's been told that preferably he will be able to play an instrument in order to demonstrate he's got the dexterity needed - basically lots of people will have the traditional academic grades needed so this is a way to help the powers that be decide who should get places. I didn't really get into music at school, only started bass at 28 out of nowhere and I still can't figure out if id been pushed early on would I have taken to it then or was I just not ready?

Edited September 13, 2014 by garyod7

[timmo]

I reckon music should be made available to kids who want it, but i think teaching them cookery skills and where food comes from is more impoprtant, along with maths and english. Someone said that the entertainment industry hasn`t suffered during the recession, so it could be a good idea. The problem with that analogy, golf hasn`t seen a reduction in prize money, so perhaps that should also be taught.

[bassist_lewis]

I signed a similar (the same?) petition. I wholly endorse with encouraging children to make music. It's fair for people to come to it later in life and enjoy it but studies show that there is a window for acquiring musical skill like language, someone who begins learning a musical instrument any time after their late teens will not be able to achieve the same level of expertise as someone who began in their teens or earlier. Why else does everyone complain that music and musicians are getting worse? Because fewer and fewer people are able to start music education early enough!