Vocals

[tom1946]

I'm back with a vocalist problem again.
My wife is a Methodist local preacher and travels around our local country area. Other than our home church they are mostly small country chapels dating back to the 1800's and they don't have PA. As she is quietly spoken people are struggling to hear her.So:

We take a Marshall AS50r acoustic amp for her 12 string guitar and although it does have an input for a mike as well it's not very loud unless it's bordering on feedback when she is speaking only. So:

Can anyone recommend a small PA that would do the job of just amplifying her voice?
Will it need 2 speakers?

help!

Ta.

PLJ etc'

[bonzodog]

Yamaha Stagepas portable PAs are a good option. They come in a range of sizes and powered mixer fits neatly into back of one of the speakers and then there is room in the back of the other speaker to store mic and leads etc. Class D amp and light speakers so very easy to carry around. You can then plug the guitar into the same mixer too and add some basis reverb for vocals. I had the largest 600W version and although not loud enough for big rooms it would be ideal for your application

[tom1946]

Thanks for that, I'll check it out.

Edit* They are a bit expensive but look amazing, she's just one woman doing a sermon in a small church so was hoping to spend about £200-ish.

Edited September 14, 2014 by tom1946

[Dad3353]

Maybe look up a vocal teacher..? Having a slight speaking voice is not a barrier to public speaking, with the right training. Voice projection can be fairly easily learnt. Worth a shot..?
Another +[size=3]1 for the Yamaha system, though; I got one for the company I worked for, for the boss's speeches to the shop floor. Works well, fuss-free. Best if one can do without, even so..?[/size]

[barkin]

[quote name='tom1946' timestamp='1410701782' post='2552059']
We take a Marshall AS50r acoustic amp for her 12 string guitar and although it does have an input for a mike as well it's not very loud unless it's bordering on feedback when she is speaking only. So:
[/quote]

Would it be loud enough, but for the feedback ? If so, maybe look at speaker/mic position instead of spending money?

[Dr.Dave]

You can pick up a cheaper version of the Stage Pas systems - such as the 300w Skytec - for 200 spots. Or you could get a used 300w mixer amp and a couple of 1 x 12 cabs - Peaveys spring to mind - for the same cash which would probably sound better. Faced with the choice - buy a good mic and an average PA rather than a great PA and a crap mic , and get your good lady properly singing into it rather than around it.

[mike257]

In terms of active PA cabs, the Alto TS series seem to get a lot of positive feedback as a budget option. A used TS112 is going on thefretboard.co.uk classifieds for about £170 delivered at the mo.

[steve-bbb]

we have a small one of these which is often used as a montior just lately but for the purposes you describe might do the trick

[url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Category/Loudspeaker-Systems.aspx?s=K300"]http://www.behringer.com/EN/Category/Loudspeaker-Systems.aspx?s=K300[/url]

[beely]

Just returned from a holiday in the USA to visit a musician friend.
She does lots of what can only be described as "campfire" gigs when children are at summer camps.
She has just purchased one of these to help out on the bigger gigs as she was beginning to strain her voice.

http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/portable-pa/expedition-rechargable/

Input for guitar and voice.
For the little I heard it, it sounded pretty decent.

[Phil Starr]

The yamaha stagepas are good, we've used one for years but for what you are describing are probably more than you need, a single powered speaker with a mic input will do. I've just bought a Wharfedale Titan 312 from Andertons £139, amazing quality vocal sound and really lightweight http://www.andertons.co.uk/active-pa-speakers/pid25497/cid627/wharfedale-titan-312a-grey-finish-active-pa-speaker-150w-50w.asp

Won't do for bass or drums but you aren't going to do that. Only one mic input but again that's OK for what you are suggesting.

[tom1946]

Thanks everyone, just what I need.
Phil, the Titan looks ideal, will it be powerful enough? Not sure what 150w + 50 =?

Ann has a very busy job with no time for vocal training so we just need a quick fix really, The AS50 sounds a bit muddy, we have tried it and it's better than nowt but.......

[skej21]

[quote name='tom1946' timestamp='1410706405' post='2552134']
Thanks for that, I'll check it out.

Edit* They are a bit expensive but look amazing, she's just one woman doing a sermon in a small church so was hoping to spend about £200-ish.
[/quote]

Maybe check out the Roland CM30? They are really small and compact (check the photos of its scale next to a person in the link) but really loud when turned up. Sound quality is really good and you get a few input options. They get fantastic reviews (5 out of 5 on musicians friend) and retail about £159 so should be perfect for you're after :-)

Link! http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/roland-cm-30-cube-monitor

[tom1946]

Thanks skej, i will check it out.

[Phil Starr]

the Titans are very loud, they claim 128dB which is incredibly loud., enough for vocals for a full rock band They actually have an almost hi-fi sound but the compromise for these hi tec speakers is the cabinet which is blown plastic. Really light but at high volumes and high bass levels it resonates and distorts, however as you are not using it for extreme volumes or bass I think it would suit

[UglyDog]

Is [b][url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PORTABLE-SPEAKER-SYSTEM-USB-80W-WIRELESS-WIRED-MICROPHONES-8-PA-VOCAL-USE-/310476162271?pt=UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL&hash=item4849d244df#ht_5354wt_1147"]this[/url][/b] any good for your needs..?

Edited September 15, 2014 by UglyDog

[Dad3353]

[quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1410796780' post='2553248']
Is [b][url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PORTABLE-SPEAKER-SYSTEM-USB-80W-WIRELESS-WIRED-MICROPHONES-8-PA-VOCAL-USE-/310476162271?pt=UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL&hash=item4849d244df#ht_5354wt_1147"]this[/url][/b] any good for your needs..?
[/quote]

I'd have thought that the handiness of having an internal battery (for 3 hours autonomy...) would be a huge bonus. No faffing about looking for mains sockets, no trailing leads..? Looks like a serious contender, at least...

[tom1946]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1410721559' post='2552355']
Maybe check out the Roland CM30? They are really small and compact (check the photos of its scale next to a person in the link) but really loud when turned up. Sound quality is really good and you get a few input options. They get fantastic reviews (5 out of 5 on musicians friend) and retail about £159 so should be perfect for you're after :-)

Link! [url="http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/roland-cm-30-cube-monitor"]http://www.musicians...30-cube-monitor[/url]
[/quote]

Bought one of these and it's just not loud enough for speaking into, playing guitar is ok but struggling vocally. On the upside it's very well made and very versatile. Going to ring Andertons and see if they'll take it back. Is there a bigger version of it?

Cheers, Tom.

[JTUK]

[quote name='tom1946' timestamp='1410719959' post='2552324']
Phil, the Titan looks ideal, will it be powerful enough? Not sure what 150w + 50 =?

[/quote]

Don't epxect too much from the Wharfedales... it is cheap kit, but not the worst cheap kit, IMO.
The 150w+50 probably marks the LF and HF split so 150w to the woofer and 50 to the horn.
Vocally this will be ok for quiet amplification, with maybe a gtr as well. If the signal in is mixed
you might be able to add keys but the vox will likely suffer. Since you don't sound like you are
needing any volume, I think they will do the job

[tom1946]

As said, she is very quietly spoken and the roly doesn't seem to add much. After I posted I found an old SM58 copy which was way louder than the expensive Sennheiser. That made a big difference! Soooooo.... I have wondered if a clip on wireless mike would work better with the roland? I don't know much about this subject so any help is very much appreciated.

She hates standing close to a microphone or 'eating it' so I guess it needs to be quite sensitive, clip on would seem to solve that problem if they are any good?

[Phil Starr]

You have 14 days I think to return to Andertons, they are good to deal with as I found out this week but you don't have much time. I've re-read your posts and I think mic technique is probably a big issue. you don't say which Sennheiser she used but using a stage mic is difficult for most people, they are mainly designed for very loud environments and to reject feedback, To do this you have to eat the mic. The SM58 is a cardioid which demands less mic technique than a supercardiod. you'd expect Sennheisers to be louder than the SM58's which indicates mic technique is an issue. A headset mic might be a good idea as once it is on you can forget about mic technique.

Thinking about your needs I reckon you should think in terms of losing the guitar amp and having a single amp that does both guitar and vocals. there are three ways to go.

An acoustic amp with a mic input, I've not used the Marshall but the better amps of this type have a very flat response and are no more prone to feedback than any other system, if cost isn't an issue the AER's are very good http://www.thomann.de/gb/aer_compact_60.htm?sid=f82773e9361901d92390e81571fa31e0 , there are much cheaper versions but I haven' tried them.

A PA package like the Yamaha Stagepas 300, is a terrific setup for what you need, I have one of these and they are great, Two very light speakers with a 4 channel mixer and featherweight 175W amp built in. No trouble carrying in the whole PA in one journey.They were the first in the new wave of PA systems designed for exactly the sort of need you have and they were soon copied by a whole load of me-too designs which may well be as good, but I haven't tried them. http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/live_stagepas.htm

PA speaker route, if you just want vocals I'd strongly recommend the Wharfedales, Since my post I've used them at two gigs as vocal monitors given them a thorough going over at home and used them for PA at a couple of rehearsals, the sound is fantastic so long as there is no bass content. However if you wanted to cut down the gear you carry and rationalise your system then they only have one input so you'd need a mixer to use the guitar as well. There are plenty of PA speakers that have two inputs so they would probably be a better bet http://www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_eon_515_xt.htm

However I think mic technique is the real problem and a worn mic might be the solution. The other is to practice at home, it takes a while to get used to hearing your voice amplified and if you are naturally shy it takes a while to get used to it.

Did you have a budget in mind?

[tom1946]

Phil, thanks for that explanation, much appreciated.

Ok last night we experimented with the Sen and the SM58 [b]copy [/b]made in china. The sen model is E845 s and we bought it new and haven't really used it.

Singing and playing a 12 string is no problem as her voice is louder when singing. Talking, she doesn't like having a mike stuck in her face so she prefers to be 4-6 inches away from it which makes the sen virtually useless when delivering her sermon. The sm copy is much better and is more responsive at that distance, just not quite loud enough. She doesn't move about when talking so I feel that the issue is mike sensitivity, hence would a clip on wireless connected to the roland be any better?

I don't want to spend a fortune on things that don't quite do it and music/audio shops are few and far between here.

Edited September 18, 2014 by tom1946

[Dad3353]

I've been reading through this topic, and I think I'd recommend going back to basics. If the requirement is, as I understand it, voice reinforcement for speech and singing with an amplified 12-string guitar, then her present acoustic amp should do the trick. If there are feedback problems, it's rather a case of placing the amp in front of the mic, rather than behind. The amp could face the congregation, or be turned back like a monitor; I would suggest the former. The mic and guitar would not, I'd have thought, need to be overly loud in such an environment, and speaking or singing should not involve 'eating' the mic; quite the opposite. Our singer has this same amp, and we have no problems setting it up in this fashion. Obviously it won't compete in volume with a drum and bass band doing AC/DC, but will enable a voice to carry to the back of a reasonable church or hall. If the venue really is more cathedral-like, then the Yamaha comes into its own, and the acoustic amp becomes redundant, as the Stage Pass is fully capable of handling both the guitar and the voice.
A headset is a good way forward, but has its constraints (wireless, or a trailing lead; picks up everything, even 'off-mic' remarks...), similarly a lapel mike could work, but either would be more 'fiddly', and one needs a certain amount of confidence to wear them, anyway. A decent vocal mic into that amp should be enough, positioned correctly; if not, the Yamaha.
Just my tuppence-worth.

[tom1946]

Just had a natter with Andertons, the guy recommended this mixer:

[b] [size=4]Alto Professional Zephyr ZMX52 Mixing Desk[/size][/b]

he said the preamp would work well with the roland rather than spending a lot more money??

**EDIT, sorry just seen the post after I wrote about the mixer.

Edited September 18, 2014 by tom1946

[tom1946]

We have tried using the Marshall but the speech side of it sounds very dull and thick, even with the treble fully up whereas the Roland is crystal clear, just needs to be a bit louder.

[JTUK]

[i]The problem seems to be the signal into the mic. [/i]
[i]If she doesn't like the mic up close, you have to use a mic that can catch [/i]
[i]the signal from a distance...and whilst a SM58 will do this..it also brings [/i]
[i]into range other sounds which you can't control. This is why people use a close[/i]
[i]mic technique.[/i]
[i]This is why SM58's aren't a great choice on a small stage as everything will bleed into them[/i]
[i]and you lose control of the sound. You can, of course, use this ambient pickup to your advantage[/i]
[i]but most are oblivious that putting a mic faurther away from the signal source may invite[/i]
[i]feedback whilst you try and get enough level up to be able to use it. [/i]
[i]I am not sure the simple act of selling you a mixer will solve the issue, until you reconcile[/i]
[i]getting enough signal into the amp source and balancing it with other signals.[/i]