Scales - Whats the point?

[JTUK]

I am not sure you can write very well or convincingly without knowing a bit about chords or scales
and what ones may work or can be substituted, particuarly when the song writing process is stuck.

As for knowing when to throw in your cliched rip-off parts...this is why at some point you should write
out a chord chart of the song and see what the changes are but then I tend to write my lines
over the gist of the songs lines so it is always important to know what the chords are, IMO.
If you play with a major chordal instrument like a piano, there is no way of avoiding knowing the chords
as anything other than root notes can be an issue.

[gadgie]

Some of you may know I'm quite new to the bass after playing guitar for many years. Now many people thought my guitar playing was pretty good. It just goes to show how people that don't actually play an instrument can be fooled lol! More to point it also shows how most people at a pub gig etc are happy to just hear songs they know played 'close enough'. Also, they can't make out that you are playing 2,3 or 4 grands worth of guitar and amp etc.
anyway back on track. I really want my bass playing to be different hence why I took my first lesson at 55years of age. I think it's going to be hard work and hopefully I don't falter.

Edited September 22, 2014 by gadgie

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1411398123' post='2559110']

As for knowing when to throw in your cliched rip-off parts..
[/quote]

Bwahahahahahaha!!!

I am SO going to have to come along to one of your gigs. Anyone who writes with such sublime Liam Gallagher-like arrogance and contempt must surely be a living GOD amongst bass players.

You know, I'm looking forward to this already.

Please could you post a list of your up-coming gigs so that some of us can come and worship at your altar?

[JamesBass]

There's lots of point to learning scales, it allows you to create runs and fills as everyone has already said, but in all honesty, in my opinion, chord tones are more relevant to a bass player, but to know your chord tones, you must know your chords, and that means knowing your scales and key signatures. While I agree most players can often find the right notes with time, there's nothing like getting in to a practice room with your band and having 2 or 3 chords strummed out and then going full improv and writing on those chords!

Most often the most fun I have is when things are random and different! Some of you guys on here would want to crucify me as I rarely even play the same phrases during songs let along gig to gig! Obviously the real skill there is knowing when a variation works and when it doesn't, for instance I've been playing Livin' on a Prayer lately, very few variations fit in to that song cause of how iconic it is! Where as playing around with songs like Rich Girl by Hall and Oates or I Need A Dollar by Aloe Blacc, I find myself putting all sorts of new runs and fills in, so long as my drummer is tight that is!

Also even at an advanced level, if you find yourself struggling with anything, going back and doing scales to your metronome can really improve you as a player and improve your confidence and feel!

[skankdelvar]

If the OP is playing roots in 90% of his songs and other notes in the remaining 10% then he is already using scales though without being aware of the fact.

But more importantly:

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1411398123' post='2559110']
As for knowing when to throw in your cliched rip-off parts...
[/quote]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1411399986' post='2559141']
Bwahahahahahaha!!!
[/quote]

So much grief might here have been avoided by use of the semi-archaic pronoun 'one'. I am pretty sure that Mr JTUK never intended his observation to be seen as peer-to-peer finger-pointing but merely to be read as:

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]As for knowing when to throw in [b]one's[/b] cliched rip-off parts...this is why at some point [b]one[/b] should write [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]out a chord chart of the song and see what the changes are but then I tend to write my lines [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]over the gist of the songs lines so it is always important to know what the chords are, IMO.[/font][/color][/quote]

Thus might other equally good-humoured sorts have been advertantly undeceived as to the characteristically polite and helpful nature of his suggestion. It is all a sad mix-up and underlines the perils attendant upon the humble object pronoun 'You'.

Edited September 22, 2014 by skankdelvar

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1411384313' post='2558899']
Hi All,

I recently decided that I should learn some theory and start learning what I'm 'supposed to know'.


I started learning the major scale and didnt really see the point in what I was doing.... I play in a covers band so when will I actually ever need or use a scale? Especially as a bass player where I'm not soloing or doing anything other than root notes with 90% of the songs we play.

Or am I missing the point?
[/quote]
How did you know they were root notes? You already knew some theory, didn't you? And you were applying it.

If you can't 'see the point' of the major scale then you are not listening to it. The same goes for any other scale. Do you also not 'see the point' of chord arpeggios and chord changes? Listen to them, name them, recognize them, apply them, listen to them again.

[Doddy]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1411400812' post='2559145']
Also even at an advanced level, if you find yourself struggling with anything, going back and doing scales to your metronome can really improve you as a player and improve your confidence and feel!
[/quote]

I wouldn't agree with this point. Running scales with a metronome is ok if you just want to keep your fingers limber and maybe increase your speed and technique, but other than that I see very little value in it.

Step away from the instrument and learn them that way.Actually learn the notes in the scale. Afterwards pick up the bass
and play them all over the instrument.Play it over one, two,three and four strings.Play it over two octaves in different positions.Extend it so you are playing every available note of the scale in various positions. Break them up and play them in different intervals-3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths-again all over the instrument. Isolate the chord tones and do the same. Add extensions to the chord tones so you are playing 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13-that way you are still using the scale but in a more chordal fashion.Start the scale on the 2nd note, then the 3rd note and so on in different positions up and down the board.Now you're getting into the modes.
Play the scale in 10ths using double stops-now you're playing with basic diatonic harmony.
That's a lot of stuff to practice and study but it will open up so much.....and that's just from one scale. Move on to the next one and do the same.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Doddy

[Dad3353]

This ^^ is how to approach it.

It's all part of the wonderful world of music. Some folks seem not to be interested, prefering the hedonist attractions of the back-stage 6-pack, or the posing with this week's fashionable logo to the flash bulbs. All good and well, but nowt to do with music. One has to have a certain intellectual aspect to enjoy wandering down the modal back streets, or inverting chord tones for fun. It's not for all, and one may enjoy bass playing (or, indeed, most other instruments...) without these private pleasures, but for those inclined, it's a road paved with gold, with twists and turns leading to an elusive horizon that recedes as one approaches. It's a life's study, at any pace, at any level, at any age. (Almost...) better than sex, and can be practised alone or in a group. Be warned: once bitten, it's enjoyment all the way. Be prepared to leave behind dull ignorance. No-one escapes unscathed.

[ambient]

For me at least, music is a language.

You wouldn't just learn a few French or Italian phrases parrot fashion, without knowing how and where to use them, may be a bit embarrassing asking a priest for directions, and actually telling him you fancy his sister

Music is the same, if you take a bit of time to learn a few simple things, it'll pay you back a hundred fold.

Just my opinion.

[arthurhenry]

You say[u] you decided [/u]to learn some theory, so there is a point. If you weren't bothered, there would be no point.

[lowdown]

I was going to have a scale ramble,
but Doddy and Dad have summed it up for me.

[Marvin]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1411406588' post='2559227']
.... may be a bit embarrassing asking a priest for directions, and actually telling him you fancy his sister.


[/quote]

That's pretty much how I failed my O-level French exam :/

[Coilte]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1411406246' post='2559224']
This ^^ is how to approach it.

It's all part of the wonderful world of music. Some folks seem not to be interested, prefering the hedonist attractions of the back-stage 6-pack, or the posing with this week's fashionable logo to the flash bulbs. All good and well, but nowt to do with music. One has to have a certain intellectual aspect to enjoy wandering down the modal back streets, or inverting chord tones for fun. It's not for all, and one may enjoy bass playing (or, indeed, most other instruments...) without these private pleasures, but for those inclined, it's a road paved with gold, with twists and turns leading to an elusive horizon that recedes as one approaches. It's a life's study, at any pace, at any level, at any age. (Almost...) better than sex, and can be practised alone or in a group. Be warned: once bitten, it's enjoyment all the way. Be prepared to leave behind dull ignorance. No-one escapes unscathed.
[/quote]


OP, if the above post does not convince you that there is a point to learning theory, then it's time to take up the spoons. [size=4] [/size]

[Lozz196]

I can play some scales now, but as I never really learned them properly, I think major, minor, pentatonic & blues. It would no doubt have made me a better payer had I learned them properly and earlier, as especially when working songs out, knowing the right notes (tho not all bands always play them) would have made things easier. But, playing punk etc, it was easy enough to go by ear. I would be a lot better I`m sure if I`d done things the proper way, but went with the "if it don`t sound right, it ain`t" approach. I`m the same with technique - I can do the things people say, I just don`t know that I`m doing them, or that that was what so&so way of playing is called. I`d recommend learning all you can - and I should follow my own advice and do the same.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1411399986' post='2559141']
Bwahahahahahaha!!!

I am SO going to have to come along to one of your gigs. Anyone who writes with such sublime Liam Gallagher-like arrogance and contempt must surely be a living GOD amongst bass players.

You know, I'm looking forward to this already.

Please could you post a list of your up-coming gigs so that some of us can come and worship at your altar?
[/quote]

Wouldn't get so worried about it..we all have them.
I've built a whole load of them. I wish I could claim to be so original but I'm not...
and neither is the next man, 99/100.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1411412036' post='2559315']...I wish I could claim to be so original but I'm not...
[/quote]

Now, where have I heard [i]that [/i]before..?

[Clarky]

I am original. I have invented my own scales based on random notes

[Marvin]

[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1411412346' post='2559321']
I am original. I have invented my own scales based on random notes
[/quote]

Afraid you're mistaken... you're playing jazz, you just didn't realise.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Marvin

[JTUK]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1411412281' post='2559318']
Now, where have I heard [i]that [/i]before..?
[/quote]

Not sure, but I think everyone nicks something from someone..
I've nicked loads and it depends who or if anyone has listened
to the same thing will depend whether they'll know or not.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1411412566' post='2559326']
Not sure, but I think everyone nicks something from someone..
I've nicked loads and it depends who or if anyone has listened
to the same thing will depend whether they'll know or not.
[/quote]

Sorry. I was 'spoofing' you, but forgot to insert the 'deadpan' Smiley'. No malice intended. [size=4] [/size]

[Clarky]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1411412521' post='2559325']
Afraid you're mistaken... you're playing jazz, you just didn't realise.
[/quote]
Its more complex than that, I play a double bass and - with no frets - I often play somewhere between the notes. I often hear appreciation from the audience ("WTF was that?" " That guy is to bass what Heisenberg is to principles" "Brownian motion in action", "Get off" etc; not sure about the last one)

[Weststarx]

Maybe I will give it a go a bit longer...

I must admit it does feel like I have learnt something even something as small as learning the notes past the 5th fret.

[bagsieblue]

Shameless self promotion as the book was mentioned earlier in this thread.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/245150-bundle-of-bass-books-introduction-beginner-level-l2000/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/245150-bundle-of-bass-books-introduction-beginner-level-l2000/[/url]

[ezbass]

[quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1411459593' post='2559624']
Maybe I will give it a go a bit longer...

I must admit it does feel like I have learnt something even something as small as learning the notes past the 5th fret.
[/quote]Which of course gives you a different tonal approach to the same scale, giving your playing character.

[Bilbo]

Music is a lot bigger than any of us ever really know or understand. The more you know about it, the further you can take it and the further it can take you. If you don't want to learn scales, that's perfectly ok. You don't have to. It just means that you will probably remain a lightweight for the rest of your career. But that may be ok because you may be satisfied with that (most are).