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Newb Q's & Feedback!!!


Raslee
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Not such a newbie on here but fairly new to DB. My reggae playing friends have taken a new direction into trad ska/rocksteady and I'm wanting to use my cheapy G4M 1/2 DB for a few numbers. After watching some beginner youtubes, and a fatigue inducing DVD that i purchased I've learned a little about technique, holding the DB etc and hand stretches so that's coming on slowly and i feel reasonably confident with several tunes so far...well at least in the living room. The set up on the bass isn't to bad, got a fairly cheap pick up off eBay that has the pads that fit into the bridge and i have a half decent Microlynx M0070 preamp , basically a brown wooden box that has good EQ, a Rumble knob...not sure exactly what that does, a phase button, DI out etc.

Sooo, with excitement i took the DB to rehearsal the other night, plugged into my trusty Carvin amp which goes into 3x15"'s :o (i know...but we used to do a lot of heavy dub stuff and they're just permanently at our practice place...Hartke XL 2x15" @ 400W& a Fender 1x15" @ 300W) and anyhow with the DB it was boom masses of feedback, EQ was flat on the amp and compressor on too. Tried moving around the room with the bass but no luck, when i did mildly calm the feedback by turning the amp gain down the overall volume was really disappointingly quiet...I'm aiming for a big fat bass tone which needs the volume aka Skatalites .

As we were auditioning a new guitarist I didn't want to spend all night fiddling to sort the feedback so i ended up playing my elec jazz bass all evening, shame as i was excited to have finally had my DB out of the living room. I'm planning to spend sometime next week with the bass and this rig to see what i can sort out but i'd of course welcome any pointers, advice, from the experienced here, taping the 'F' holes perhaps ??? Also is the Fishman preamp the holy grail for feedback as i've read ? Would i be better off with a magnetic pick up ?

Thanks for any support :)

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A preamp with a high pass filter (HPF) is pretty essential for cutting out low end boom. The 'rumble knob on your preamp seems to be a HPF - what did you have that set to?

You're also not doing yourself any favours with three 15" speakers - double bass works better with 10" or smaller. If you haven't got a cab with 10s or 8s, then you could try unplugging the 2X15" extension and just use the Fender 1x15 - it will help to reduce some of the boom.

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[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1411647728' post='2561504']
A preamp with a high pass filter (HPF) is pretty essential for cutting out low end boom. The 'rumble knob on your preamp seems to be a HPF - what did you have that set to?

You're also not doing yourself any favours with three 15" speakers - double bass works better with 10" or smaller. If you haven't got a cab with 10s or 8s, then you could try unplugging the 2X15" extension and just use the Fender 1x15 - it will help to reduce some of the boom.
[/quote]
Thanks for your helpful response. I tried the rumble knob at both ends of the spectrum but to no avail. Also I hear what your saying about the 15'S; the reason there is 3 is that it sounds great with the electric bass for that fat dubby old school 70's sound (i've tired every cab combination under the sun and this seems to cut it best), plus the drummer goes through his own PA in our rehearsal room so it is ridiculously stage loud. I still need that fat dub sound for the EB as we plan to continue doing some classic dub stuff in our live set so i will need to switch between DB & EB accordingly.

Actually come to think of it my Carvin BX1500 amp has two amps inside, an A & B, I guess i could link the single 15" to the B amp and turn A down when using the DB i.e. DB through the B amp and single 1x15" as you say...maybe an option, but i'm hoping it will be loud and deep enough. I've also been foot switching between EQ's on my amp, parametric for my EB and Graphic EQ for my DB, i'm hoping the graphic will allow me to dial out feedback frequencies quickly. I will have lots to experiment with next week.

Do magnetic pick ups reduce feedback? (that may be a silly Q but i thought i'd ask).

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Magnetic pickups turn your DB into a sideways-on fretless (as long as you have steel strings - they don't work with nylon or gut strings obv!) Means zero feedback but you lose a lot of the DB vibe and it ends up more like a fretless P bass. The best mag pickup I have tried is the Krivo which sounds more woody than others in my view and is closest to an acoustic sound.

A decent piezo pickup, a good preamp with HPF and a phase switch, and keeping your bass away from things that will cause it to vibrate (eg, monitors, loud cabs pointing at it, a wobbly wooden floor etc) should allow you to be free of feedback.

Stingray Pete has gone the magnetic pickup route and seems quite happy - maybe ask him about his experiences, as he is not long on a DB (though doubtless a sh*tload better than me!!!)

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[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1411659304' post='2561662']
.... keeping your bass away from things that will cause it to vibrate (eg, monitors, loud cabs pointing at it, a wobbly wooden floor etc) should allow you to be free of feedback.
[/quote]
This is a very interesting point. As previously mentioned the drummer, and also the keys player, go through our overly monstrous, and reggae sound system style, PA, .....and of course it's facing right at me - rattle rattle!!!. :)

Hmmm, thinking about the magnetic pick up if i can get more volume and less/no feedback. Of course i'll experiment with what i've got though first. :)

This sounds good [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXt6BE2Qk9Q"]http://www.youtube....h?v=WXt6BE2Qk9Q[/url]

Edited by Raslee
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[quote name='Raslee' timestamp='1411664268' post='2561729']
This is a very interesting point. As previously mentioned the drummer, and also the keys player, go through our overly monstrous, and reggae sound system style, PA, .....and of course it's facing right at me - rattle rattle!!!. :)

Hmmm, thinking about the magnetic pick up if i can get more volume and less/no feedback. Of course i'll experiment with what i've got though first. :)

This sounds good [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXt6BE2Qk9Q"]http://www.youtube....h?v=WXt6BE2Qk9Q[/url]
[/quote]

A big PA should be fine if you have your own monitor and you can place it where it doesn't point at the bass body. On a stand works well, and with lots of mid so you can hear it. It's backline that tends to cause the biggest problem.

Practice rooms are different though, 'cos you've probably got the PA behind you.

To be honest, I'm not sure you'd be losing too much by going for a mag. In a loud band, the upright is mainly a visual thing imo.

Love the idea of db in a reggae band though. :)

Edited by fatback
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I have a similar problem in the practice room. I go straight into PA from a small monitor / mixer but still get a quite a lot of feedback so I am going down the magnetic pickup route (I have seen a couple of DB players using mags and it sounds ok to me). Still keeping the piezo's though and might try a mix of the two for gigging when the PA in front of me. Again, I agree with fatback, for me, the visual aspect is more important then the subtlety of sound. We have loud guitar and a very loud drummer so I can't win!
Maybe keeping the 15's connected just to EB and running DB into PA might help.

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Yes i agree about the visual element, which is largely what we're going for I think in this band, but equally experience for me in playing the DB. The mag pick up option is seeming more logical for what we're aiming for.

Has anyone got any suggestions on magnetic pick ups other than the Krivo that Clarky mentioned? Have to say I am really liking the sounds of the Krivo that i've seen on youtube but wondering what else is out there too....better still anyone selling a magnetic pick up :)

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I have ordered directly from Kent Armstrong pickups UK ([url="http://www.armstrongpickups.co.uk/"]http://www.armstrongpickups.co.uk/[/url]), Aaron from them was very helpful. £100 all in, and pickup should be here next week so I will post my experiences of it. They came recommended by another BC'er friend (Bobvbass), and his tone always been really nice so I thought I would copy! Schaller seem to be well thought of too.
I went for magnetic as feedback a problem in the small rehearsal room and I am happy to sound closer to a pbass if I have to if it saves the aggravation. I tried the Fishman Plat Pro with phase cancel etc, tried a feedback buster but just got fed up in the end. Even bought a slimline bass to reduce the size of acoustic chamber.

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[quote name='Raslee' timestamp='1411731428' post='2562322']
Yes i agree about the visual element, which is largely what we're going for I think in this band, but equally experience for me in playing the DB. The mag pick up option is seeming more logical for what we're aiming for.

Has anyone got any suggestions on magnetic pick ups other than the Krivo that Clarky mentioned? Have to say I am really liking the sounds of the Krivo that i've seen on youtube but wondering what else is out there too....better still anyone selling a magnetic pick up :)
[/quote]

Kent Armstrong. About £90, excellent. You may need to email Aaron who does the making, but i can't find the addy. Maybe someone can helop with this?

You draw the profile of your fingerboard end and he makes one to fit. neat. Fixes with studs or velcro and is almost invisible.

EDIT: beaten to it :)

Edited by fatback
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[quote name='randythoades' timestamp='1411736788' post='2562393']
I have ordered directly from Kent Armstrong pickups UK ([url="http://www.armstrongpickups.co.uk/"]http://www.armstrongpickups.co.uk/[/url]), Aaron from them was very helpful. £100 all in, and pickup should be here next week so I will post my experiences of it. They came recommended by another BC'er friend (Bobvbass), and his tone always been really nice so I thought I would copy! Schaller seem to be well thought of too.
I went for magnetic as feedback a problem in the small rehearsal room and I am happy to sound closer to a pbass if I have to if it saves the aggravation. I tried the Fishman Plat Pro with phase cancel etc, tried a feedback buster but just got fed up in the end. Even bought a slimline bass to reduce the size of acoustic chamber.
[/quote]
[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1411736838' post='2562394']
Kent Armstrong. About £90, excellent. You may need to email Aaron who does the making, but i can't find the addy. Maybe someone can helop with this?

You draw the profile of your fingerboard end and he makes one to fit. neat. Fixes with studs or velcro and is almost invisible.

EDIT: beaten to it :)
[/quote]

Nice one guys, that's really helpful. I will give Kent Armstrong a call when i get my DB back from the rehearsal room next week. :)

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Hello! I have indeed gone for a mag pickup, a Schaller 411, I'm really happy with it and it's given me the confidence to gig the upright now I can here what I'm playing! I'm going to blend my piezo in with ALL frequencies removed that cause any trouble with the Fishman plat pro, I've ordered a Behringer ab100 so I can end up with a single output to go either to my amp or the pa, for blues or county etc it should work well and with the piezo mixed in for a bit of that DB tone it should sound a lot less fretless P bass held on end!

It will be at the derby bash on Sunday :)

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I too can highly recommend the kent Armstrong pickup. I've only had to use it a couple of times but it goes to every gig with me just incase I can't get enough juice out of the piezo.

On the occasion when I have used it I've sent the piezo signal to the front of house and the magnetic signal to amp as monitor. Who knows what it sounded like out front but at least I could hear plenty of bass on stage.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I did some messing around yesterday blending the pickups. I now have the Kent Armstrong magnetic pickup, a Fishman BP100 and the Schatten RB1a. I left all EQ flat and ran everything through my Mackie mixer which has an instrument pre amp switch rather than use either the K+K or Fishman Plat Pro, and into my GK MB200 into 2x12 ashdown cab. I recorded it on my Zoom H2 so I could listen back on it so if anyone knows how to upload audio I can post it for wider listening (or I can email it if you PM me).
My conclusions were:
Mag pickup alone - loud and proud but very bass guitar like but with enough DB flavour to make it different, probably more about playing technique. No finger noise.
Schatten alone - Quite a good acoustic sound but very mid orientated to my ears. Lots of finger noise
Fishman BP100 alone - Again, a better acoustic sound but not very many mids, a bit boomy on bass and then some sharp trebles.
Mixing mag pickup with either piezo 50/50, piezo still takes over with lots of finger noise.
Mixing mag pickup with piezo 70/30 gives rich and smooth bass from mag with a smaller amount of finger noise and treble which sounds perfect to me.

However, I asked my son and his friend which they preferred and they both chose the mag only and said all the others were really scratchy, so maybe the listening public don't care about the subtleties!

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Well most people at the bash tried my bass with just the mag connected via a Fishman into the Genz amp, general consensus was that it sounded like a double bass, once in a loud band mix I think only upright players would notice and as long it sounded good would they care? I have now decided I'm going mag only and took off my Bass max, for what it adds the complexity of blending them is out weighed for me personally. Long live the mag pickup :)

Edited by stingrayPete1977
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StingrayPete1977
Do you run the mag pickup into a Fishman pre amp first before your amp then? Does that make difference? I am very impressed with my Kent pickup and am veering towards the easy setup and removing the piezos too. In my music room I do prefer the mix of the two but think I will ditch the piezo for rehearsing but perhaps output the piezo into PA for gigging.

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That's what I do yes, if I didn't have the Fishman already in an attempt to control the various piezos I would run it straight in like AP bass but I have found setting it roughly to the Fishman recommended pizz settings in the little book make it sound really nice and super thumpy, I just leave my amp totally flat and a Genz shuttle flat is about as flat and clear as any amp out there. Piezos meh :D

Edited by stingrayPete1977
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