Playing ahead of or behind the beat

[arthurhenry]

Questions:

Can anyone offer a simple explanation of precisely what this means?
Is it just an abstract, subjective, "feel" based idea?
If you play ahead of or behind the beat, aren't you just out of time?
If a drummer plays to a click and places his/her kick and snare slightly before or after the click consistently, with the same amount of time between each hit, then surely they may as well play on the click.

Edited September 28, 2014 by arthurhenry

[JTUK]

But if you play on the click...you might not even hear it..so that can be disconcerting in itself...
I far prefer a back beat. It is lazy in feel and just feels easier. I don't like a drummer to push
as it can feel like the beat is racing.
As with all these things... it is all about the skill and feel of the drummer

It is a feel thing..if you are confused about backbeat etc..just wait until you get to the 'pocket' ha ha

[witterth]

"Feel" is often used as an excuse for sloppy/lazy/ cakhanded playing. (Fagedadaboudit) "feel" is being about being on it. listen to Pino Palladino. he's on it.

[Skol303]

Playing ahead of the beat typically happens on faster songs (where players tend to 'creep ahead' in the speed of their playing) and it can give a sense of 'urgency' to the music.

Conversely, playing behind the beat can give a sense that the tempo is being 'held back', creating a more lazy and languid feel to the song.

Generally speaking, playing behind the beat is more difficult to do well IMO.

In either case, we're talking small fractions of a beat (1/64ths) - otherwise you're correct in saying that it will simply sound out of time.

Interestingly, in electronic music production, beats that are programmed to land exactly on time can sometimes sound too regimented and robotic. Hence producers often go to great lengths to nudge their beats away from the click (especially in genres like hip hop), so add a more "human" feel to the groove.

And ultimately, that's what playing off the click results in: groove

[Cosmo Valdemar]

The whole ahead/behind of the beat thing is something I have never been able to understand.

[witterth]

playing behined the beat is easyplaying behind the beat is easy, as is ahead of the beat, loads of players do it. the "Greats" are on it. that's what makes 'em great. you just know when you are on it, its the way it is. I don't always manage this BTW!

Edited September 28, 2014 by witterth

[Captain Rumble]

How about the idea of how long a note is and where in relation to the beat you start and finish the note. For me when this feels correct I feel I am in the pocket.






Could be talking complete b*ll***ks of course

Edited September 28, 2014 by Captain Rumble

[TimR]

I'll find a video in a minute that explains it really well.

Often the hi hat will mark the beat but the bass drum can play before or after and you get the feel of the song being pushed along or held back while the actual tempo doesn't change at all.

If you play with a drummer who plays everything bang on the beat it will sound like a drum machine. No drummer actually plays like this, apart from a few drummers I know who trained in marching bands.

The bass can also push or pull the song as long as the drummer is solid.

Listen to Crazy Little Thing Called Love. It's a swing BUT John pushes ahead all the way through where in a usual swing the bass would lag behind the beat. Compare this with the Robbie Williams version which feels lazy.

Edited September 28, 2014 by TimR

[HowieBass]

I see playing ahead of or behind the beat as just breaking away from strict synchronisation with the drummer and if you're consistently ahead of or behind the beat you're still playing in time and at the same tempo as the drummer, just not precisely syncing with, for sake of argument, their kick drum - think in terms of echo (after) and pre-echo (before) maybe?

[tonyquipment]

Fascinating thread..

I think I'm usually behind on the beat only because I'm lazy bass. Sloppy bass playing. Some like it, some not

Depends on the kind of band really !

[inthedoghouse]

[quote name='Cosmo Valdemar' timestamp='1411904967' post='2563688']
The whole ahead/behind of the beat thing is something I have never been able to understand.
[/quote]
Me too!

[essexbasscat]

[url="http://youtu.be/OxiHuIKmWy4"]http://youtu.be/OxiHuIKmWy4[/url]


This isn't played behind the beat (a fair amount of the time), but the beat well and truly reigned in

[peteb]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1411908978' post='2563754']
I'll find a video in a minute that explains it really well.

[/quote]
I would love to see that video mate.

[Leslie77s]

I've been playing with bands for 25 years and have never went in for this before/after type of thought. It's all about feel for me and experience. If you practice/gig long enough with drummers you learn their strengths and faults, when it truly comes together there is a sonic connection and you unmistakably know you're on it. The whole band buzzes and it just works. If that feeling isn't there, analyse and try harder.
That's just my opinion BTW!

[TimR]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1411982297' post='2564449']

I would love to see that video mate.
[/quote]

I have a YouTube link that I saved in 2008 which seems to be broken. I think it was Dave Weckl - "Developing your feel"

"Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4QZr8q1IE"

Edited September 29, 2014 by TimR

[Skol303]

Here's an easy experiment to do at home if you have the appropriate gear:
[list]
[*]Create a basic 4:4 beat.
[*]Record yourself playing something simple along to it - ideally a bassline that is 'on beat' and coincides with the kick drum.
[*]Quantize the recording of you playing bass, so that the notes are all exactly on time.
[*]Now trying nudging the bass recording slightly forwards and backwards in relation to the beat - and listen to the difference it makes to the 'groove'.
[/list]

The quantized recording will probably sound slightly 'artificial' - that's because our ears (or rather our brains) perceive precise rhythms as being somewhat unnatural. Moving the bassline in front of the beat will make the groove sound more 'urgent'; moving it behind the beat will make it sound more 'relaxed'.

This is also a useful way of checking where your natural playing sits in relation to the beat. You'll probably find that 'the pocket' we all talk about is actually quite wide and accommodating - and not as precise as you might think

[TheSiberian]

I always considered Stewart Copland as "ahead" and John Bonham as "behind"
In both cases there was a hell of groove out there and both Sting and JPJ were stellar.
Best

[charic]

We've got one song in the set where I play the same riffs throughout at the same tempo. At the start I'm behind the beat and at towards the end I switch to ahead of the beat (and put a bit more aggression into my playing) and the difference is huge

Compare this to the recording which is lazy and relaxed throughout and it's night and day

[cheddatom]

I didn't really understand this until I started playing drums to a click. Where we'd previously sped up, we were now "ahead" and where we'd slowed down, we were now "behind". It sounds a lot tighter than actually speeding up and slowing down!

[stingrayPete1977]

Not being able to play on the beat and consciously playing in a constant space before or after the beat are different things, it only becomes a feel thing once you know what you are doing when it becomes second nature IMO

Edited September 29, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[Skol303]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1411990542' post='2564536']
Not being able to play on the beat and consciously playing in a constant space before or after the beat are different things, it only becomes a feel thing once you know what you are doing when it becomes second nature IMO
[/quote]

Absolutely! Playing out of time is a totally different thing and something that I personally have mastered through (lack of) diligence and practice

Edited September 29, 2014 by Skol303

[Jacqueslemac]

I understand the theory and have tried to play ahead of and behind the beat, but it's difficult to keep up. I tend to slide back onto the beat.

A drummer once remarked that he liked playing with me, because it didn't matter what tempo he did nor whether he got faster or slower, I just kept with him. That's kind of a compliment but also illustrates why I find it difficult to vary where I play in relation to the beat (usually the bass drum in my case).

[steve-bbb]

it's not just about playing in front of or behind the beat either

it's also a question of degree and not unexpectedly it's all down to minute variations and the most subtle of nuances

for example take a slow mellow bluesy type number - play too far behind the beat and you will sound plain and simple out of time - play on the beat or too close to the beat and it will sound 'not laid back enough'

takes a lot of practice and experience and can often be one of those things where if you try too hard you will stuff it up good and proper and overcook it

ed - imho ymmv mcton etc etc

Edited September 29, 2014 by steve-bbb

[stingrayPete1977]

Playing (and listening to) as many styles and genres of music is probably the most practical way of learning to just feel it, I've been lucky to play with some great drummers which has helped me see what goes where, messing around with the beat without the front person realising is when it's right yet the feel is different, if you keep getting funny looks from them your just sloppy

Nod your head bang on the beat then play the note after, the longer the nod the longer the delay, before the beat is harder I'm not sure how competent I am at that really and crap drummers will usually speed up rather than hold the same time ime

Edited September 29, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[Dad3353]

Could I offer this as an example of how to play bass 'around' the beat..? Only 2 notes, but expertly moving, sometimes 'pushing', then pulling back. Jack Casady, of course; one of my all-time favourite pieces. Enjoy...

[media]http://youtu.be/O8M1oNgWhtk[/media]

(I lie; there is very occasionally a third note. [size=4] [/size][size=4] Fine drumming, too. [/size] [size=4] [/size][size=4])[/size]

Edited September 29, 2014 by Dad3353