Made in China

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Protium' timestamp='1412756886' post='2571584']
That post made no sense at all

If you want to compare like-for-like (in other words not handbuilding cars in 1994 compared to a modern production line...) you can see much the same facilities at Jaguar/Land Rover in Speke, Vauxhall in Ellesmere Port, Toyota in Deeside. Those are just local examples to me, need I go on...?
[/quote]

Yes, of course the UK has modern car factories today. My point was in the context of slagging off China as a land of poor quality/primitive manufacturing.

That may have been true 20 years ago - hence my Aston factory link - but times have changed and top manufacturers today can't get away with such things. Just as Aston had to up their game (though only when finally rescued from bankruptcy by Ford) so has Chinese manufacturing.

China has also been more successful at embracing completely new product technologies, whereas UK has (broadly) only continued to update its traditional manufacturing base. Where is the UK's microelectronics manufacturing industry today, for example? Sony finally closed their CRT manufacturing facility in Wales some time ago now and I'm not aware of any LCD manufacturing in the UK today, so that's another technological advance that we've let slip past.

I'm not suggesting we don't 'do' high tech, of course we do, (ARM is a good example) but we don't manufacture it any more.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1412758086' post='2571597']
That's like comparing chalk and cheese..
[/quote]

More like different types of cheese. They are both cars after all.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1412756427' post='2571579']
But who would turn their noses up at a 1960's Aston..??
[/quote]
I would. When it comes to British cars of the 60s my rose coloured glasses are firmly put away in a drawer.

[JTUK]

The Chinese started from scratch with the technology of the day...
It was deemed too expensive for the lies of us to do so..... plus we had
'outdated' labour laws, which weren't/aren't always a bad thing at all.
One of the reasons the Far East is so productive/cheap is because they
probably don't have the same labour costs, and not just the daily rate, either.

Having said that, I'd be interested to know what the typical working conditions are
over there. Anyone..??

So, if that is the case, it is apples and oranges, IMO.

[JTUK]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1412758592' post='2571607']
I would. When it comes to British cars of the 60s my rose coloured glasses are firmly put away in a drawer.
[/quote]

Nobody expects them to be daily runarounds... just as you wouldn't expect those present top marquess to do the mileage today.
Of all those top sports cars, mostly with Italian names..or at least of that ilk, the only one that will drive all day every day,
is a 911..which happens to be German.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1412758903' post='2571613']
The Chinese started from scratch with the technology of the day...
It was deemed too expensive for the lies of us to do so..... plus we had
'outdated' labour laws, which weren't/aren't always a bad thing at all.
One of the reasons the Far East is so productive/cheap is because they
probably don't have the same labour costs, and not just the daily rate, either.

Having said that, I'd be interested to know what the typical working conditions are
over there. Anyone..??

So, if that is the case, it is apples and oranges, IMO.
[/quote]

Good point about developing countries (terrible phrase really) starting from a higher technology base without all the legacy that can hold us back. We don't see India and African countries bothering to install miles of crappy telephone wiring that we are lumbered with for our digital communications. They go straight to mobile phones and optical fibre.

And so it is with advanced manufacturing, which is why we've fallen behind.

And yes, a big reason for the lower costs is the lower wages. It's an unpalatable truth that their standard of living is lower than ours so a typical UK worker needs higher wages to sustain his nice house, his own car, his 40 inch flat screen TV with Sky-everything subscription plus as assortment of expensive i-gadgets and foreign holidays. (Ironically, from a 'green' perspective, this is a good thing - but that's another discussion.). But their standard of living is catching up fast, so their current advantage won't last forever and then the world will be looking for the next area of low cost manufacturing. Perhaps this will be the UK by then?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1412756427' post='2571579']
But who would turn their noses up at a 1960's Aston..??
[/quote]

I would too. The only reason to have one would be so I could sell it and buy something useful with the money.

On the whole I don't like cars and the hassle that come with having to drive. IMO the only car worth having comes with a chauffeur.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1412759139' post='2571615']
Nobody expects them to be daily runarounds... just as you wouldn't expect those present top marquess to do the mileage today.
Of all those top sports cars, mostly with Italian names..or at least of that ilk, the only one that will drive all day every day,
is a 911..which happens to be German.
[/quote]
The trouble is that even those 1960s British cars that were built as 'runarounds' often didn't 'runaround' when you wanted them to and how i miss those winter mornings and the chorus of starter motors straining to start (and often not starting) those lovely 60s motors.

[Twincam]

I see nothing wrong in where a bass or car is made.
Modern production methods means these days its very hard to make a crap bass or car.
If design was like for like. What does make the difference is the material quality and the final finger work. The devil is in the details as they say.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1412681525' post='2570958']
Stretched wire? Hmm.

Wire is [u]made[/u] by stretching it.[/quote]

This is true, it was invented by two Aberdonians arguing over a penny. [i](The old ones are the best)[/i]

In the OP the second of the three links refers to bulk purchases, in batches of 6?

[Weststarx]

To me, where something made does not bother me in the slightest.

However when it comes to guitars, because of all the snobbery I have always kept away from Made In China stuff apart from when I brought a Fender Dimension bass which I ended up selling because I just found it annoying.

The made in china on it always put me off slightly which I know it shouldnt but it did because of the stigma put on eastern made instruments by gear snobs.

[JTUK]

Same with 60's basses.
They may play like dogs but I suspect the ones they didn't are the ones that lasted...the rest ended up as fire-wood somewhere alone the line...
but we'd all still have one... as well as an Aston, so we could watch it appreciate in value.
Astons would..so would Fenders.

[flyfisher]

Ah well, if you'e talking about investments then fair enough . . . an Aston would then be better than a Mondeo for sure! And USA Fenders over MIJ or MIM ones.

Weststarx summed it up perfectly . . . . "[i]because of all the snobbery[/i]"

[BigRedX]

I own a 60s bass. Not a Fender but another reputable brand. It's a nice instrument, but the only original parts left are the wood, frets and pickups. Everything else has worn out and had to be replaced, and it will probably need a refret very soon. It's probably worth a fraction of what it would fetch with all the original parts. On the other hand with it's modification it continues to be an instrument that I use - without them it would be reduced to being an ornament.

I don't see electric basses or guitars as investments. At some point the bottom will fall out of the market when people realise that the majority of "vintage" instruments are simply old and those that are actually any good have become far too valuable to actually be able to be used in the way that they were originally designed for.

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1412760209' post='2571627']
Good point about developing countries (terrible phrase really) starting from a higher technology base without all the legacy that can hold us back. We don't see India and African countries bothering to install miles of crappy telephone wiring that we are lumbered with for our digital communications. They go straight to mobile phones and optical fibre.

And so it is with advanced manufacturing, which is why we've fallen behind.

And yes, a big reason for the lower costs is the lower wages. It's an unpalatable truth that their standard of living is lower than ours so a typical UK worker needs higher wages to sustain his nice house, his own car, his 40 inch flat screen TV with Sky-everything subscription plus as assortment of expensive i-gadgets and foreign holidays. (Ironically, from a 'green' perspective, this is a good thing - but that's another discussion.). But their standard of living is catching up fast, so their current advantage won't last forever and then the world will be looking for the next area of low cost manufacturing. Perhaps this will be the UK by then?
[/quote]

This isn't catching up overnight... and it is argueable if the riches will be passed down.
It took us an awful lot of laws and effort to get some of that wealth to the working man
but we had a 'benevolent' stream by that time within our society. Maybe not enough
but we had our Kings give up autonomy whereas the likes of likes of other countries might not.
Russia, ..?? Cities like Moscow and St P seem quite cosmopolitan, but in the provincial cities,
people still live in Flat complexes and single mothers go home to live with their parents in a two bed
appartment and have their teenage son in the same bedroom..??
There is an argument that we should trade more with partners that have the same social costs
but then we are left with trading with the E.U... Or, we could tariff certain countries if they
knock most of our ability to manufacture our own goods.
I have always said the only 'good' thing about Eurpoean states joining together is as a trade bloc.
Never got why it it needed the politcal thing..??

And it is n't all about China, India, Brazil etc have huge potential.

And finally, we will have to wait in line for our cheap labour option..the next stop wil be Africa, which...er....
China 'controls'..??

[flyfisher]

Interesting points. You're right that our Kings gave up their power and a lot of their wealth (though it has hardly trickled down to the same level as the majority of people) , but it took hundreds of years and wasn't always a smooth process. China's industrialisation in a global market context has only recently begun so it's probably a bit early to accurately predict how it will work out. Same with Russia. Anyway, the environment they are working in today is vastly different to what existed when we invented the industrial revolution, so it's probably not realistic to expect a similar outcome.

Interesting times, but we're certainly no longer top of the pile when it comes to global reach and capability any more.

[Geek99]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1412758592' post='2571607']

I would. When it comes to British cars of the 60s my rose coloured glasses are firmly put away in a drawer.
[/quote]
I've had one - it was a money pit

[Geek99]

Like the look of the strat with custom wood and paint options

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1412765797' post='2571730']
Interesting points. You're right that our Kings gave up their power and a lot of their wealth (though it has hardly trickled down to the same level as the majority of people) , but it took hundreds of years and wasn't always a smooth process. China's industrialisation in a global market context has only recently begun so it's probably a bit early to accurately predict how it will work out. Same with Russia. Anyway, the environment they are working in today is vastly different to what existed when we invented the industrial revolution, so it's probably not realistic to expect a similar outcome.

Interesting times, but we're certainly no longer top of the pile when it comes to global reach and capability any more.
[/quote]

I think we gave some sort of 'democracy quite a long time ago... we allowed people to vote and we tried to clean up voting issues.
All this happened 150-200 years ago which kind of empowered the 'lower' classes but the point is more that we had 'devolved' power
of sorts ..compared to the rest of the world..and we had relatively benevolent leaders. Al this measured against the standard of the day,
of course, but now we are coming across countries that are highly sospicated in some senses.... but pretty backward in others.
As you say, it is a big gap to jump...
Most of the progress made was made because people shared a bit more... whereas a lot of the countries we are competing against,
don't seem to share very well at all. Again, share is relative
Our recent PM's might have family money but even Blair didn't get his money from dipping into the states coffers.
He may have done some other stuff just as heinous though,

[Myke]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1412758497' post='2571606']
More like different types of cheese. They are both cars after all.
[/quote]

One's a hand built, top of the range sports car from the 60s and the other is a 4x4 built in 2012 I presume?

But, I suppose they are both cheeses

[JTUK]

I like lots of cheeses... and we make more cheeses than anywhere else in the world.
We must have quite a cheese industry

I am chief cheese picker on our ski road trips...and the alpine countries make decent cheese as well.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1412780769' post='2571978']
One's a hand built, top of the range sports car from the 60s and the other is a 4x4 built in 2012 I presume?

But, I suppose they are both cheeses
[/quote]

You're right that they are extremes, but that was sort of my point. From an engineering excellence point of view, why is it that all these so-called 'supercars' are so, er, temperamental?

The other thing I've always wondered is why are these so-called 'supercars' such fantastic head-turners? What I'm getting at is why does a wonderfully reliable piece of mass-produced engineering such as a Mondeo (other examples are available but let's stick to the theme) have to look like a piece of cheap sh*te instead of all sumptuous, sleek and curvy like an Aston Martin? it can't cost that much more, if anything at all, to press out body panels for a Mondeo or an Aston once the tooling has been made.

Or is it that a £250,000+ price tag automatically makes a supercar wonderfully attractive whereas a £25,000 price tag makes it look sh*te?

A bit like gold plated mains plugs for hi-fi systems?

[Mornats]

Just going back to my post from page 1, do remember that iPhones, iPads and MacBook Pros are all made in China yet most people consider these to be premium high quality products.

People with pro-quality Apple-based home studios can often (and I'm speaking anecdotally here and not referring to anything mentioned in this thread) really slag off and completely discount instruments made in China just because they're made in China.

[EssentialTension]

I have had two instruments that were made in China. Both were fine instruments.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1412967119' post='2573793']
Just going back to my post from page 1, do remember that iPhones, iPads and MacBook Pros are all made in China yet most people consider these to be premium high quality products.

People with pro-quality Apple-based home studios can often (and I'm speaking anecdotally here and not referring to anything mentioned in this thread) really slag off and completely discount instruments made in China just because they're made in China.
[/quote]
It always makes me laugh around World Cup time to see all those foreign made cars with China made St George's cross England flags hanging on them. Ha ha.

Edited October 10, 2014 by EssentialTension