Does body wood make a difference to the sound of a bass guitar?

[Doddy]

Magnets don't pick up wooden vibrations do they?

[TheSiberian]

But ears should...at least if they are open.

[Doddy]

[quote name='TheSiberian' timestamp='1413304353' post='2576954']
But ears should...at least if they are open.
[/quote]

I'm not arguing the different acoustic properties of different woods. What I'm asking is do the magnetic pickups in an electric
instrument actually pick up the vibrations of a solid piece of wood?
Personally, I think that body wood is a minor factor in the sound of an instrument. I think the difference between EMG and Bartolini are far more important than the difference between ash and alder. The biggest factor though is always going to be the person
playing the instrument.

[xilddx]

How would this compare to a normal Fender Precision?

[TheSiberian]

I think of one interesting experiment (at least intelectually wise); let's make two bodies of let's say first a christmass tree wood and second a 20 years selected walnut tone wood, put some Bartolinis with a Pope preamp, some DR hi beams strings and a maple neck with rosewood fingerboard, badass bridge, etc.
The two basses will be absolutely the same except the body wood.
What about the sound? Any difference? What do you think?
Is still the GIGO concept valable?
Best

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413303890' post='2576947']
Magnets don't pick up wooden vibrations do they?
[/quote]
We were discussing this at the double bass bash as I have a magnetic pickup on my upright, general consensus on the net was that it will just sound like a fretless p bass, actual opinions on the day were nothing like, out certainly didn't stick out compared to basses with piezos either.
My best way to describe it is to think of a big hollow bodied electric guitar Gibson 50s compared to a solid body electric guitar like a Les Paul, not the same at all even with hum Bucker pickups are they? The body and sound post etc of my upright must be affecting the string vibrations this in turn the overall sound, that is a massive hollow box compared to a solid electric bass though, not a walnut vs a maple top a few mm thick on a bass with an 18 volt preamp.

Edited October 14, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[BigRedX]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1413306061' post='2576979']
How would this compare to a normal Fender Precision?


[/quote]

When I took mine to a bass bash, the general comment was how "woody" and "conventional" it sounded. I've never got as far as actually plugging a P-Bass in because I don't get on with the design or "ergonomics" so I couldn't say for myself.

[Matte_black]

If wood didn't make a difference I wouldn't waste my time building.

[discreet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1413307554' post='2576994']
When I took mine to a bass bash, the general comment was how "woody" and "conventional" it sounded.
[/quote]

Not surprised. The sound of a P Bass is all about the split pickup and its position between the nut and the bridge. That's it.

[skej21]

My body wood is of the human variety and it hasn't made a difference to my tone...

[TheSiberian]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1413309999' post='2577043']
Not surprised. The sound of a P Bass is all about the split pickup and its position between the nut and the bridge. That's it.
[/quote]
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" - Fridrich Nietzsche
Best

Edited October 14, 2014 by TheSiberian

[discreet]

[quote name='TheSiberian' timestamp='1413315242' post='2577117']
« Les convictions sont des ennemis de la vérité plus dangereux que les mensonges. » - Friedrich Nietzsche
Best
[/quote]

Nietzsche also said that there are no facts, only interpretations.

[TheSiberian]

He also said; Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions.
Ha ha Ha I love the Basschat.
Best

[Dad3353]

... and... [size=4]"In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."[/size]

[discreet]

Er... are we having an argument, or agreeing with each other??

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1413306061' post='2576979']
How would this compare to a normal Fender Precision?


[/quote]

What the . . .

That's pretty cool. Reminds me of these:


Only more metal!!!!

[hamfist]

[quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1413325583' post='2577276']


What the . . .

That's pretty cool. Reminds me of these:


Only more metal!!!!
[/quote]




NECK DIVE !!!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1413325583' post='2577276']
What the . . .

That's pretty cool. Reminds me of these:


Only more metal!!!!
[/quote]

It's a [url=http://borntorock.com/f4b.html]Born To Rock F4B Bass[/url]. As well as being made almost entirely out of aluminium the design does away with the need for a truss rod. You can read all about the one I used to own [url=http://basschat.co.uk/topic/32239-aluminium-part-3/]here[/url].

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='TheSiberian' timestamp='1413306804' post='2576986']
I think of one interesting experiment (at least intelectually wise); let's make two bodies of let's say first a christmass tree wood and second a 20 years selected walnut tone wood, put some Bartolinis with a Pope preamp, some DR hi beams strings and a maple neck with rosewood fingerboard, badass bridge, etc.
[b]The two basses will be absolutely the same except the body wood.[/b]
[/quote]

That's debateable, actually Strings vary from set to set, and the two necks won't be identical either---they're also made from two separate pieces of wood.

What you need to do is to make one instrument, play it and record it, take the neck and all of the hardware off and put it back on again (repeatedly) to prove that you can put it back on without changing the sound of this first instrument at all (if just putting a bass together differently changes the tone significantly then all bets are off), then take the neck and hardware and put it on the second body, and then prove that the sound of this second bass is sufficiently different that the change in body wood can be said to be meaningful. Even then, all you'd have done is prove that two different pieces of wood sound different. If you wanted to make sweeping statements about the sounds of different kinds of woods you'd need to do [i]a lot [/i]more experiments.

What I will say is this. Most brass musicians swear blind that the metal you make their instruments from makes a clear difference to the sound they make. White gold is "mellower" than brass, etc etc etc. However, proper double blind tests, where a high end trumpet maker made a series of valveless trumpets (they have no moving parts so they're fairly straightforward to duplicate) out of different materials showed that the effect of the material was inconclusive at best. Turns out musicians are better at "listening" with their eyes then their ears

Same with violinists. "Everyone knows" old violins like Strads are "the best" but in double blind tests professional violinists prefer modern top end violins to old classics.

The moral of the tale is that its very, very dangerous to assume anything when it comes to the brains effect on the ears.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1413360349' post='2577389']
What I will say is this. Most brass musicians swear blind that the metal you make their instruments from makes a clear difference to the sound they make. White gold is "mellower" than brass, etc etc etc. However, proper double blind tests, where a high end trumpet maker made a series of valveless trumpets (they have no moving parts so they're fairly straightforward to duplicate) out of different materials showed that the effect of the material was inconclusive at best. Turns out musicians are better at "listening" with their eyes then their ears

Same with violinists. "Everyone knows" old violins like Strads are "the best" but in double blind tests professional violinists prefer modern top end violins to old classics.

The moral of the tale is that its very, very dangerous to assume anything when it comes to the brains effect on the ears.
[/quote]

Yeah, this is an odd area. If all of these subjective things about our relationship to an instrument are so important to how we feel about playing it there could be a case for embracing that, as long as we're honest about it. If a player has a positive feeling about playing an instrument individually handmade from carefully selected woods with no expense spared, does it matter whether he could tell it from a crudely made copy in cheap woods with the same pickup when recorded in a blind test? Could it be argued that if that player feels better about the first instrument then it is a better instrument for him?

[TheSiberian]

One think I like about this forum is that everything is debatable. And we take the fun of it.
I heard voices in the F1 race that the only difference between Ferrari and Mercedes are the tyres...
Best

[BigRedX]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1413360349' post='2577389']
That's debateable, actually Strings vary from set to set, and the two necks won't be identical either---they're also made from two separate pieces of wood.

What you need to do is to make one instrument, play it and record it, take the neck and all of the hardware off and put it back on again (repeatedly) to prove that you can put it back on without changing the sound of this first instrument at all (if just putting a bass together differently changes the tone significantly then all bets are off), then take the neck and hardware and put it on the second body, and then prove that the sound of this second bass is sufficiently different that the change in body wood can be said to be meaningful. Even then, all you'd have done is prove that two different pieces of wood sound different. If you wanted to make sweeping statements about the sounds of different kinds of woods you'd need to do [i]a lot [/i]more experiments.
[/quote]

I'd go further than this. If you can establish that disassembling and rebuilding the bass has minimal affect on the sound then I would want to see what effect different bodies made out of the same wood have. I'd suggest that a sample of 20 bodies would be an absolute minimum and would be happier with something in the 100 bodies range would be more representative.

Also each of the bodies would have to be made out of a single piece of wood. IMO once you start gluing bits of wood together you simply add too many variable even if you could guarantee that all the joins were in exactly the same place on all the bodies and the same amount of glue had been used each time.

And finally each body would need to have been made on the same CNC machine from the same template and any finishing was exactly the same on all the bodies.

Only after all that would I start to consider a different type of wood and see if there were any constant differences between the two types.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1413357101' post='2577360']


Surely the strap button could be located anywhere on that top tentacle thing, meaning zero neck five?


NECK DIVE !!!
[/quote]

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1413363544' post='2577426']
Surely the strap button could be located anywhere on that top tentacle thing, meaning zero neck five?
[/quote]

And in fact it can be. Also BassLab instruments are made out of a composite material and are completely hollow (even the neck), so with all that hardware on the body neck dive is going to be non-existent.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1413362703' post='2577416']
Yeah, this is an odd area. If all of these subjective things about our relationship to an instrument are so important to how we feel about playing it there could be a case for embracing that, as long as we're honest about it. If a player has a positive feeling about playing an instrument individually handmade from carefully selected woods with no expense spared, [b]does it matter whether he could tell it from a crudely made copy in cheap woods with the same pickup when recorded in a blind test?[/b] Could it be argued that if that player feels better about the first instrument then it is a better instrument for him?
[/quote]

I think this is the wrong comparison. The topic of the thread was meant to be whether the species of body wood makes a difference to the tone. The correct comparison then would be an instrument individually handmade from carefully selected woods with no expense spared to another instrument individually handmade from some other wood with no expense spared other than the choice of wood species. Or, two crudely made basses that only differ in the species of wood of the body. Otherwise you're comparing apples with oranges. Particularly since nobody seems to be claiming that a crudely made instrument is as good as a very well made instrument.

Returning to the topic, the violins and brass instruments are good examples of how the personal experience of people who are quite expert in a field can still easily be wrong. That's why we need well designed and implemented experiments to find out what the truth is.