Bass through monitors

[Tuono]

Evening folks,
I know nowt much about PA. Our guitarist/singer does (?) and he gets wound up before a gig. Anyway, I thought I would put a bit of bass through the desk (di from my amp) and so give the desk some control over my volume. So far so good; I got a bit in the monitors as well and that was when he threw a wobbler and said about ten times that you NEVER put bass through the monitors.....is he right?
He said I should be able to hear my own rig; fair enough but if I can hear myself clearly he complains he can hear nowt but bass. Also he says bass will pop the monitors but the keyboard goes through them!
So, can you put bass through your monitors ?
The monitors are Carlsbro Alpha 12s I think.

[taunton-hobbit]

Just did a bit of a fly round Google - looks as though the said boxes will handle 200 watts and down to 20hertz - just what you need for the average pub....I have to say that I think your vocalist is being a tad alarmist?

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

If the guitarist wasn't mr. Vocals as well, I'd suggest everyone plays and mr. Vocals turns around and checks the volume and he decides.
Why not bring someone along who could listen and make a neutral judgement with levels etc.
Mr. Guitar sounds a bit jumpy

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Tuono' timestamp='1413228780' post='2576176']
I know nowt much about PA. Our guitarist/singer does (?) [/quote]Not as much as he thinks he does.
[quote] I got a bit in the monitors as well and that was when he threw a wobbler and said about ten times that you NEVER put bass through the monitors.....is he right?[/quote]No, and yes. You should be in the monitors so that everyone else can hear you. So should all the instruments, save the drums (who has trouble hearing them?). But what should be in the monitors is your mids and highs, which travel from your cab in a straight line. Your lows radiate in a circular pattern, so they don't need any assist from the monitors, and in fact running the lows though the monitors can cause their low frequency output and that from your cab to cancel each other. A good soundman knows this, and he'll high-pass the bass in the monitors to keep the lows out of them.

[skidder652003]

of course you can put bass through the monitors. Not too much low end or you'll fart out the cones but just a little middle and top adds to the mix. You're facing fowards, your rig is behind you, a little bass towards you means you won't need to drive your rig too hard asuming you have your bass going front of house through the PA

Edited October 13, 2014 by skidder652003

[ironside1966]

There is no set rules if it works for everybody in the band do it. Saying that there should be no need unless you deliberately play quit or the band plays too loud. Also if you have a bass sound coming from the back out of your cab and at the same time coming out of the front wedges you are likely to get phasing problems. If you want my personal opinion I would just use the front wedges for the vocals unless there is a reason not to.

Edited October 13, 2014 by ironside1966

[Phil Starr]

I've some sympathy with your guitarist, especially with the getting wound up before a gig bit

I was a sound engineer for years before picking up the bass later in life. As a sound engineer you have one focus and it's easy. Running the PA, playing bass and remembering to entertain, that's tough, especially as musicians won't take the sh*t from other band members they will from the sound engineer.

Those Carlsboros won't take much bass at all, other monitors might, it may be a matter of practicality rather than principle.

Some vocalists like to hear their voices isolated from the band others like to hear lots of the band, it isn't about right or wrong but a choice. If your vocals are out then nothing will make your band sound worse, so singers trump the band when it comes to monitors I'm afraid. Keep the darlings happy if you can.

I'd also be a bit pissed if someone started fiddling with my mix without discussing it beforehand, if you want to try something new then talk about it and do your experimenting at rehearsal, not at a gig, the poor chap probably had enough on his mind just getting the mic leads threaded round the drummer!

Ideally for a five piece band I'd have five separate monitor mixes, if you had space which few UK venues do then it would at least double the cost of the PA to do this. Most bands limit monitors to vocals with a bit of acoustic guitar and maybe the keys fed in too, it isn't ideal but it works. Other solutions work too but there needs to be compromises. If you are using 12" Carlsboros then you are short of cash I guess. He isn't really being a t*t, just protecting the gear from a helpful band member.

Bill's right about hearing the detail in the bass, a few mids coming from a floor monitor really help. Nothing to stop you buying your own and getting all you need from that. My favourite rig is a Hartke Kickback doing just that and DI into the PA. Bass rolled off slightly into the Hartke and boosted by an equivalent in the PA. I can hear every mistake I and the rest of the band make

Edited October 14, 2014 by Phil Starr

[JTUK]

In practice, with those monitors, it is a bad idea.
They aren't good enough anyway so vox only which should be their primary purpose
and this is what the vocalist should be hedging against.
They will want the best vocal monitor they can get...so as not to strain the vocals
and to put keys and anything else thru them degrades this, potentially, especially as
they aren't great monitors in the first place.
Two issues, as far as I can see... stage sound/EQ not sorted so you want to start there
rather than messing up a voc mix as well..???
You want to see how good a P.A is ... check out the monitors. I doubt you'd use those monitors as
out front cabs...so I wouldn't be using them as monitors myself.
But..since they are what you have..help yourself by keeping them as clean as you can, for the vocals..IMO

[BigRedX]

The main reasons for not putting the bas through monitors in the average small PA set up is that it will sound rubbish and IMO these sorts of monitors are designed for vocals and any acoustic instruments amplified with a microphone. The more instruments you put through the monitors the less good they become at their primary purpose, and besides your rig should be more than adequate for you to hear yourself (that's what it's there for!)

[Ben Jamin]

Looking up the Carlsboro monitors - you're probably going to damage the speakers if you run your bass (unless it's high-passed - filtered out low frequencies) at reasonable volume through them. It's the sub frequency stuff that's the speaker-killer - which bass guitars tend to kick out a lot of. As BRX says these kind of monitors are designed more for vocals/instruments that take up the mid-range.

If you're running bass into the PA then you could maybe try repositioning/setting up your amp so that it works just as a monitor for you, as opposed to going out front of house as such.

[ironside1966]

Good experienced musicians arrange their parts so they fit sonically with the other instruments, it's the same with tone, it is all about working and gelling together has a band, it is not about getting killer tones with your own instrument it's about fitting in and finding you place within the music. If you constantly get a bad stage sound then putting everything through the monitors won't be doing you any fevers at all until you have address any problems you may have with the arrangements, tone, playing too loud, or simply playing as bunch of individuals and not has a band. even if just one member doesn't get this it can bring the whole band down. ff you get it right there is no reason for not getting a good sound on or off stage.

Edited October 15, 2014 by ironside1966

[Magic Matt]

The new monitors we use have a DSP processor that kills off low frequencies, plus they have overload protection, so I can put my bass through them no problem at all - it's worth looking up details about your monitors as it seems quite a few of the newer ones do that.

[itsmedunc]

I'm surprised your guitarist needs to go through the PA never mind the monitors as well!!! Many guitarists are that loud onstage that the don't warrant going through the PA with small to medium gigs. One of our guitarists still doesn't know he rarely gets a channel. Problem is he can't understand that he needs to turn down! As for bass in monitors, I played with only monitor signal on Friday as the back line amp had blown. I've often considered not using my own gear and just using the monitors...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='itsmedunc' timestamp='1413323937' post='2577259']
I'm surprised your guitarist needs to go through the PA never mind the monitors as well!
[/quote]Guitar more than any other electric instrument needs to be in both the PA and monitors, as its high frequency dispersion pattern is abysmal. The problem with most guitar players is that they play so loud that the small percentage of the audience that is within the dispersion pattern of their speakers end up with bleeding ears, while the rest, including a bass player standing only ten feet from the guitar amp but off to one side, can't hear them at all. The smart guitar player knows enough to use no more than a 1x12 speaker, so he can crank it for tone without excessive volume, letting the PA spread his sound across the room and the monitors across the stage.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[itsmedunc]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1413339315' post='2577327']
Guitar more than any other electric instrument needs to be in both the PA and monitors, as its high frequency dispersion pattern is abysmal. The problem with most guitar players is that they play so loud that the small percentage of the audience that is within the dispersion pattern of their speakers end up with bleeding ears, while the rest, including a bass player standing only ten feet from the guitar amp but off to one side, can't hear them at all. The smart guitar player knows enough to use no more than a 1x12 speaker, so he can crank it for tone without excessive volume, letting the PA spread his sound across the room and the monitors across the stage.
[/quote]

Thanks for that! I'm going to forward this anonymously to the guitarist! I have to stand as far right as possible to him as he is far too loud for me. I wish he would agree to stand on the right though. The drummer and I would have a chance of communicating!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='itsmedunc' timestamp='1413365722' post='2577464']
I have to stand as far right as possible to him as he is far too loud for me.
[/quote]He wouldn't be if the cab was aimed at his head. But a surprising percentage of guitar players have serious issues with basic anatomy, as they seem to think that their ears are mounted on their calves.

[6v6]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1413339315' post='2577327']
The smart guitar player knows enough to use no more than a 1x12 speaker, so he can crank it for tone without excessive volume, letting the PA spread his sound across the room and the monitors across the stage.
[/quote]

This is so true - for years (yes, I am an ex-guitarist but please don't hold it against me [size=4]) I carted around a huge 2x12 50w valve combo, it was so heavy and I was forever being told to turn down by sound guys, while simultaneously getting a pants tone due to not getting the power stage cooking. Some guys insist on 100w amps where the problems are even worse.[/size]

Switching to a small 15w 1x12 combo about 10 years ago was a revelation, half the weight & the tone was so much better. I sat it on a chair at gigs so it was nearer my ears and I could actually hear myself, and we'd stick a mic in front of it for bigger gigs where a bit of extra through the PA was needed.

Edit: spelling

Edited October 16, 2014 by 6v6

[Kevin Dean]

I use a Peavey xr1212 & Alto 12" monitors I put the Keyboards & Electric drums through the monitors But the peavey does have a low cut on the monitor out .. I've never thought of putting my bass through as well , I think I will give it a try as Some time I just cant hear any note definition on a tight stage but it sounds great about 8 ft away .& the monitors could help .

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Kevin Dean' timestamp='1413452470' post='2578313']
Some time I just cant hear any note definition on a tight stage but it sounds great about 8 ft away
[/quote]That's due to the small midrange dispersion angle. While it's not as much an issue with bass as with guitar, it's still necessary for your ears to be within the cone shaped midrange dispersion pattern of your speakers. If you're standing close to your rig that means tilting it back, unless it's an 8x10 or a stacked arrangement that stands at least four feet high. OTOH, unless your cab is aimed at the drummer, how does he hear your mids? He doesn't. Monitors aren't just for vocals, they're for whatever needs to be heard.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice