Chord Tones for theory noobs

[tedmanzie]

Chord Tones - my fave bass player Carol Kaye says forget your scales, you need your chord tones so she must be right!?

I've got pretty good technique but terrible theory…
Can you point me in the right direction of a good book/online course/ video etc for learning & applying chord tones - keeping it simple is the goal!

[Dad3353]

[size=4][quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1413540243' post='2579244']...keeping it simple is the goal!
[/quote]
Good afternoon, Ted...

Do you know what notes make up a major chord..? Root, 3rd, 5th..? Is that foreign to you, or not..?

1 - The concept is unknown...
[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hal-Leonard-Bass-Method-Complete/dp/0793563836/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413540491&sr=8-1&keywords=bass+method"]Hal Leonard Bass Method: Complete Edition...[/url]
... or ...
[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bass-Guitar-Dummies-Patrick-Pfeiffer/dp/1118748808/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1413540491&sr=8-3&keywords=bass+method"]Bass Guitar For Dummies...[/url]
... (both available from other book sellers...)

2 - The concept is familiar...
Play the notes for each chord, in each tonality, naming the notes aloud as they are being played. Repeat for minor chords, major sevenths, minor sevenths etc. 15 minutes per day doing this will instil chord tones. Play a few tunes, following the chords, playing only the notes in the chords. One may use inversions, chord tone intervals, arpeggios etc to vary the effect. Try to connect the notes from one chord to another. Enjoy...
Just my tuppence-worth, hope this helps.[/size]

Edited October 17, 2014 by Dad3353

[BassBus]

Janek Gwizdala did a useful series of free videos about harmony late last year. They were a preview for his twelve week course on the subject. Worth a look.

http://youtu.be/7d5t8t0Y-zU

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413541105' post='2579261']
Good afternoon, Ted...

Do you know what notes make up a major chord..? Root, 3rd, 5th..? Is that foreign to you, or not..?
[/quote]

Hi Dad

This just about sums up the entire contents of my theory brain cells:

Major Chord - root, 3rd, 5th, octave
Minor Chord - root, flat 3rd, 5th octave
I get the idea of chromatically going up or down to hit for example the the root or 5th.

Scales:
Pentatonic Minor scale
Pentatonic Major scale
Major Scale
Major Scale with the flat 7

I'm not very fluent with these - i.e. i know the 'finger moves' rather than the notes, and i usually have to 'start' on the E or A string


When you say 'name the notes aloud', do you mean say 'root, 3rd, 5th' or 'A, C, E' ?

What are the notes (root, 3rd etc) in Minor 7 and Major 7 chords? I reckon Major, Minor, Min7 and Maj7 would do me for the meantime.

Cheers!
ted

p.s. is the V - VII - IV thing relevant to chord this? sorry if that sounds daft, I never learned what those were...

Edited October 17, 2014 by tedmanzie

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1413542285' post='2579279']
Janek Gwizdala did a useful series of free videos about harmony late last year. They were a preview for his twelve week course on the subject. Worth a look.
[/quote]

Thanks looks good

[Doddy]

I'd at least be familiar with the major scale because it makes it easier to talk about chord tones.
Basic chord tones are made from the first, third and fifth notes of the scale, so in C the chord tones are C,E,G.
A minor chord will have a flattened third, so C minor will be C,Eb,G.

If you then move on to 7 chords, these made from the same basic chord but with the seventh note of the scale added.So taking
C again, a C major7 chord will be C,E,G,B. For a minor chord,take the basic minor chord and add a flattened seventh, so C minor
is C,Eb,G,Bb. The next chord is slightly different and is known as a Dominant 7 (written as C7). A dominant 7 chord is basically
a major chord with a flattened seventh, so a C7 will be C,E,G,Bb.

This is a basic way of explaining chord tones as there are many variations and it can all get pretty deep.
Start with basic major/minor chords and progress from there.
Feel free to ask questions-I've got loads of chord tone exercises.

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413544355' post='2579313']
I'd at least be familiar with the major scale because it makes it easier to talk about chord tones.
Basic chord tones are made from the first, third and fifth notes of the scale, so in C the chord tones are C,E,G.
A minor chord will have a flattened third, so C minor will be C,Eb,G.

If you then move on to 7 chords, these made from the same basic chord but with the seventh note of the scale added.So taking
C again, a C major7 chord will be C,E,G,B. For a minor chord,take the basic minor chord and add a flattened seventh, so C minor
is C,Eb,G,Bb. The next chord is slightly different and is known as a Dominant 7 (written as C7). A dominant 7 chord is basically
a major chord with a flattened seventh, so a C7 will be C,E,G,Bb.

This is a basic way of explaining chord tones as there are many variations and it can all get pretty deep.
Start with basic major/minor chords and progress from there.
Feel free to ask questions-I've got loads of chord tone exercises.
[/quote]

Thanks, very helpful.

When you say it would be 'good to be familiar with the major scale' do you mean learn root, 3rd & 5th in the 11 roots? A, A#, B, C etc

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1413543924' post='2579303']
p.s. is the V - VII - IV thing relevant to chord this? sorry if that sounds daft, I never learned what those were...
[/quote]

This is referring to the order in which the notes of a given scale are played.

For example if the song is in Cmajor, then "V - VII -IV" would be G (5th note in Cmajor scale) - B (7th note in CMajor) - F (4th in C Major)

Hope that makes sense

[Bilbo]

I think Doddy means more like TTSTTTS, the sahpe of the scale

[Dad3353]

What he (Doddy...) said..^^^^^^.

Yes, the Roman numerals are really just another way of expressing Root (I..), 3rd (III...), 5th (V...) etc, merely for concision. Used really for expressing chords, though. It's easier to write I IV V the 1st, 4th, 5th. A brief look at harmony would help you much more than the actual bass-playing, I would suggest, as the explanations are not really bass-related; they apply to all modern instruments. Have a look at how chords are formed (stacking thirds..?) and chord sequences (Be warned: could lead to some understanding of 'jazz'. There, I've said it. Damned..! I'd wanted to avoid putting you off. Oh well...).
Ask away with the questions, too, that 's a very good way of getting answers (some of which may be correct...).

Edited October 17, 2014 by Dad3353

[Dad3353]

The major scale helps as it's the kicking-off point for all the rest. When one says '2nd', it's normally taken to be the 2nd of the major scale. Once these notions are familiar (the first 40 years are the hardest, after which things become [i]slightly [/i]easier...), one may better grasp the further concepts, with other scales, modes et al. Don't worry your pretty little head with such trifles for now, just stick to the simpler side until it's ingrained.
No, one doesn't have to slavishly go through all the tonalities (although it's not forbidden..!); once the principle has been established, try seeing how you can apply it to songs that you already play, or pick a few from the 'standards' repertoire (Autumn Leaves', etc...). The obscure keys are useful only to professional 'pit' players. If that's your goal, go for it. If not, do them only in your spare time.

[Doddy]

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1413544719' post='2579320']


Thanks, very helpful.

When you say it would be 'good to be familiar with the major scale' do you mean learn root, 3rd & 5th in the 11 roots? A, A#, B, C etc
[/quote]
I mean understand the way that a major scale is spelt, like Bilbo said. That makes it easier to understand the chord tones.
Of course, you should still practice them in all keys like you suggest.

One quick, but important point...when you start playing these exercises, it becomes very easy to start playing fingering patterns blindly. If you want to really learn them, you should take your time and learn what notes relate to what chord.It will give you a deeper understanding and open up the whole fingerboard

[Kiwi]

Nie Rodgers uses something similar when figuring out chord progressions. Only he called it a tonal centre.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413545031' post='2579329']
Yes, the Roman numerals are really just another way of expressing Root (I..), 3rd (III...), 5th (V...) etc, merely for concision. Used really for expressing chords, though. It's easier to write I IV V the 1st, 4th, 5th.
[/quote]

You're right in second part.
Roman numerals are usually written in respect of harmony-so I, IV, V would indicate (for example) CMajor, FMajor, G7...or whatever
depending on what key you're in.
Chord/scale tones are normally written as 1,2,3....etc.

Sorry..I don't want to confuse you.

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1413544824' post='2579321']
This is referring to the order in which the notes of a given scale are played.

For example if the song is in Cmajor, then "V - VII -IV" would be G (5th note in Cmajor scale) - B (7th note in CMajor) - F (4th in C Major)

Hope that makes sense
[/quote]

No doesn't make sense, but maybe this is another thread…?!

[OliverBlackman]

Although its nice that everybody contributes it can be very confusing. I would advise to seek ONE teacher or ONE book, mostly because although the theory is the same, the way in which it is communicated is often different, this thread being a great example.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413546866' post='2579369']
You're right in second part.
Roman numerals are usually written in respect of harmony-so I, IV, V would indicate (for example) CMajor, FMajor, G7...or whatever
depending on what key you're in.
Chord/scale tones are normally written as 1,2,3....etc.

Sorry..I don't want to confuse you.
[/quote]
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:167485]

[Dad3353]

[quote name='OliverBlackman' timestamp='1413549615' post='2579418']
Although its nice that everybody contributes it can be very confusing. I would advise to seek ONE teacher or ONE book, mostly because although the theory is the same, the way in which it is communicated is often different, this thread being a great example.
[/quote]
Too many cooks spoil the light work, eh..? [size=4] [/size]

[Coilte]

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1413540243' post='2579244']
I've got pretty good technique but terrible theory…
[/quote]

Then hopefully these links will help :

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/

This is a great all round site worth ear marking IMO. Here it deals with the importance of chord tones. My advice would be to start at the beginning and work your way through the lessons.



http://www.billygreen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Music%20Theory%20-%20Basic,%20Intermediate,%20Advanced.pdf

Music theory that builds from basic to more advanced.


http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm

Chord formula chart.



https://www.scribd.com/doc/2087887/A-Comprehensive-Chord-Tone-System-For-Mastering-The-Bass-Jeff-Berlin

When you have a good knowledge of the basics, you can start working on inversions.

[Coilte]

[quote name='OliverBlackman' timestamp='1413549615' post='2579418']
Although its nice that everybody contributes it can be very confusing. I would advise to seek ONE teacher or ONE book, mostly because although the theory is the same, the way in which it is communicated is often different, this thread being a great example.
[/quote]

I would agree with this. That is why I posted the "Study Bass" site earlier. The lessons start at very basic level and each one builds on what went before, so if the OP follows the lessons chronologically, then there will be no gaps in the learning process.

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413545031' post='2579329']
Have a look at how chords are formed (stacking thirds..?) and chord sequences (Be warned: could lead to some understanding of 'jazz'. There, I've said it. Damned..! I'd wanted to avoid putting you off. Oh well...).
Ask away with the questions, too, that 's a very good way of getting answers (some of which may be correct...).
[/quote]

No idea how chords, or chord sequences, are formed, even though I'm basically a guitarist disguised as a bass playing rabbit.
Chord sequences/progressions would be VERY helpful for me to learn, which would then lead into the chord tone stuff I imagine.

[tedmanzie]

Thanks for all your contributions, very helpful so far

[Dad3353]

[size=4][quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1413555784' post='2579532']
No idea how chords, or chord sequences, are formed, even though I'm basically a guitarist disguised as a bass playing rabbit.
Chord sequences/progressions would be VERY helpful for me to learn, which would then lead into the chord tone stuff I imagine.
[/quote]

Back to here, then...

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hal-Leonard-Bass-Method-Complete/dp/0793563836/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413540491&sr=8-1&keywords=bass+method"]Hal Leonard Bass Method: Complete Edition...[/url]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]... or ...[/font][/color]
[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bass-Guitar-Dummies-Patrick-Pfeiffer/dp/1118748808/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1413540491&sr=8-3&keywords=bass+method"]Bass Guitar For Dummies...[/url]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]... (both available from other book sellers...)[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]There's enough in either of those to get you through the winter months. Neither are a waste of money. There are tons of others, but these two you can keep on your shelf for a long while. They're not difficult at all; try one and see..?[/font][/color][/size]

Edited October 17, 2014 by Dad3353

[visog]

Twitter via BGM just suggested this resource which is comprehensive, pertinent and most of all free!

http://bassguitarscales.org/

[Bilbo]

I always find explanations of theory much easier to comprehend when you already know what everything actually means!!