Fender, In trouble?

[neepheid]

[quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1416317939' post='2608961']
I've sat through and read all this thread - I need a lay down now...

My question is why are Gibson not in the same position?

They've produced the same old Gold/tabacco burst Les Pauls for years and they too have the cheap Epiphones and Studio versions of all their gear.
[/quote]

They've produced many things other than Les Pauls you know

Plus Gibson have been in similar positions in the past - been bought by a company with naff all pedigree in making musical instruments (Norlin, much like CBS), been run into the ground (financially and/or from a perceived quality point of view) and rescued.

[spacey]

People were holding this company up as an Example to Rickenbacker.
Perhaps now they might understand why it is important to protect your branding and the worth of your products.

[mentalextra]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1413638441' post='2580412']
Just remember one thing when you're saying that products made in China are cheap and crap. All of your iMacs, MacBook Pros and iPhones are all made in China. Cheap crap yeah? I don't think the country of origin can be seen as a sign of quality. As someone mentioned above, the variance in quality of the US models is what's damaging the brand.
[/quote]

Although to be fair Chinese iphones are not built to last forever. Just imagine how much an iphone would cost if the Germans built it!

[Mornats]

[quote name='mentalextra' timestamp='1416335865' post='2609183']
Although to be fair Chinese iphones are not built to last forever. Just imagine how much an iphone would cost if the Germans built it!
[/quote]

As are all smartphones but my point was that they build cheaply and charge a premium. It's like Fender shipping its Custom Shop to China for huge cost savings and charging you £1600 for a Deluxe Jazz still.

[MiltyG565]

iPhones are assembled in China, but I think most of the parts inside them are actually German, and very few are actually made in China.

[notable9]

I'm not surprised by any of this, what a mess.

eg: The neck on my cheapo VM Indonesion P is incredible with perfectly finished frets and a finish and straightness which I have'nt seen for along time on anything.

Even the thickness of the headstock is a lot thinner and better proportioned than my 70's P headstock. The whole thing is a lightweight too with much better sustain than my 70's P which in itself is a nice instrument.

It really makes you wonder what your paying for in the US models. I wonder if the suits at FMIC ever check the current crop of Asian models. Reckon they need to.

[tonybassplayer]

In 1995 I moved from running a small Ford and Nissan dealership to a Rover site. I went on a two day introduction course and couldn't believe the arrogance/naivety of the two guys running it. They had obviously been with the company for years.

After a day and a half I politely suggested that at the weekend they go out and drive their competitors cars. Clearly they didn't and the rest is history.

Unless you constantly go forward you automatically go backwards.

I am 56 and love my Jazz bass and Strat but I am no longer the target market.

[simon1964]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1416333009' post='2609153']
People were holding this company up as an Example to Rickenbacker.
Perhaps now they might understand why it is important to protect your branding and the worth of your products.
[/quote]

+1

Ironic, isn't it? Fender's branding is all over the place, compared to Rickenbacker.

Edited November 22, 2014 by simon1964

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='tonybassplayer' timestamp='1416481292' post='2610581']
In 1995 I moved from running a small Ford and Nissan dealership to a Rover site. I went on a two day introduction course and couldn't believe the arrogance/naivety of the two guys running it. They had obviously been with the company for years.

After a day and a half I politely suggested that at the weekend they go out and drive their competitors cars. Clearly they didn't and the rest is history.

Unless you constantly go forward you automatically go backwards.

I am 56 and love my Jazz bass and Strat but I am no longer the target market.
[/quote]

I get exactly what you're saying. I see some brands as being a bit stuck in the past (not necessarily just instrument manufacturers), and it's not hard to see why. The people producing the product love what they're making, the people selling the product love what they sell (and that they get it for free), but I get the impression that they never try out their competition, because if they did, they would realise the importance of changing what they do.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='tonybassplayer' timestamp='1416481292' post='2610581']
In 1995 I moved from running a small Ford and Nissan dealership to a Rover site. I went on a two day introduction course and couldn't believe the arrogance/naivety of the two guys running it. They had obviously been with the company for years.

After a day and a half I politely suggested that at the weekend they go out and drive their competitors cars. Clearly they didn't and the rest is history.

Unless you constantly go forward you automatically go backwards.

I am 56 and love my Jazz bass and Strat but I am no longer the target market.
[/quote]

I've owned at different times both Fords and Rovers (never a Nissan...), and found that I was able to go both forward [i]and [/i]backwards at will with either, although obviously not at the same time. Was I just lucky..? [size=4] [/size]

[Subbeh]

If the head gasket didn't go then yes, you were clearly one of the chosen few, hopefully the imitation wood trim trim softened the blow

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Subbeh' timestamp='1416626259' post='2612105']
If the head gasket didn't go...
[/quote]

Ah, the Granada Estate, eh..? Too long a story for here; another time, certainly. A real corker of an anecdote, but long, very long..! [size=4] [/size]

[Hugh971]

I remember when I bought my Mexican precision a few years ago (which I've now sold) there was far less choice.

If I remember correctly there was the MIA Fender Jazz and Precision bass, things like the MIA Precision Deluxe (or something like that) which was PJ and active, and the MIM Fender J and P. There was the MIJ stuff but that was hard to come by over here.

They seem to have saturated and confused the product range now, there are loads of different Fender P and J basses which are all slight variations.

I think they should have just stuck to the more simple approach they had a few years ago.

I wouldn't look at Fender now (except maybe MIJ). If I wanted a cheaper (MIM range) I'd look at Squier and if I wanted a more expensive Fender type bass I'd be looking at Sandberg or similar.

[Woodinblack]

I tried a Squier CV P bass, a MiM and an American the other day unplugged (I always try them unplugged first). I now have the Squier. The American was probably a better bass, but I didn't like the neck profile (I don't actually like P necks, but the Squier was great).

I think they need to do what Apple did. In 1997 when Jobs came back to apple, they had a lot of different ranges, and a lot of other products. He cancelled all the non core products and trimmed the main line down to 4 products, basic and premium home, pro desktop and laptop.

Fender need to do the same thing, cut down on their product lines, make it clearer what people are getting.

[stingrayPete1977]

The trouble is there are so many versions of each version too, USA std or USA deluxe for example. Personally I think they should have kept Fender as usa models only, then Squier by Fender maybe with fender on the headstock just smaller for mex models, Squier for the higher end squiers, then maybe something like "Affinity by squier" as the entry level stuff.

[bubinga5]

its the classic, money ruins everything in the end. i think Fender will never get rid of there legendary quality issues. I've played many Fenders over the years. but now, there is no way i would go out of my way to get another Fender. there are way better basses out there. and too be honest I'm bored of the Fender brand. the only Fender i would consider would be a CS, and then i wouldn't, because i could get a better bass for the same price. yep I'm done with Fender. apart from a nice P Bass.

Edited January 1, 2015 by bubinga5

[stingrayPete1977]

I felt the same way but finding a nice us jazz V has made me realise I do like having one in my arsenal, the dodgy ones with crap B strings just makes me more happy to have this one, its already picking up a few marks and I dont mind somehow it feels right.

[Sibob]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1420129795' post='2645898']
.... yep I'm done with Fender. apart from a nice P Bass.
[/quote]

And therein lies their business model

Si

[40hz]

I know it's been said a million times before but Fender's attempts at new models (imo) are always really dull. Maybe it's the high standards we expect due to the P+J basses. The Dimension was probably the best effort i've seen from them since but even then, it's still a little 'meh'

Edited January 2, 2015 by 40hz

[UglyDog]

[quote name='Hugh971' timestamp='1416748940' post='2613117']
I wouldn't look at Fender now (except maybe MIJ). If I wanted a cheaper (MIM range) I'd look at Squier and if I wanted a more expensive Fender type bass I'd be looking at Sandberg or similar.
[/quote]
This, pretty much.

[stingrayPete1977]

I've tried Sandberg basses a few times, left me totally cold and the mm equipped ones are like an mm with the battery nearly flat. The finish is generally good but I don't know they just don't float my boat,I was convinced I would come home with a lakland dj5 yet it was the good old yank jazz that won the fight and my money in the end, it's a nice bass all told so they do exist!

[Skinnyman]

Problem is, we're talking about Fender as if it's a guitar Company and its not. It's an investment vehicle and as such needs to demonstrate a return on that investment. And that comes from growth. And growth isn't easy to achieve when the global economy is as tanked as it has been for the last few years, so instead you borrow money against your assets, saddling the company with debt, and you buy other companies, such as Genz Benz, Takamine, and all the others that Fender has acquired in the last ten years or so.

From what I've managed to glean, Fender is saddled with so much debt that it can never hope to trade it's way out of trouble and so the corporate takeover belter skelter will have to continue until they can start to offload some of their assets.

In the meantime, of course, the investors will no doubt have taken out substantial amounts of cash in the form of dividends.

As I say, it's not about making guitars, it's about making money

[tauzero]

Scrape "Fender" or "Squier" [1] off the headstock and put "Walmart" there and you have the business model.

Fender has always been about making basses cheaply and in great numbers. The haphazard machining techniques of the 60s and 70s meant that there was a fair amount of variation and you could get a good one or a crap one. As CNC took over the world, tolerances got better and you were guaranteed a mediocre one every time.

There was mention of innovation and how Fender had tried and it hadn't worked. They didn't really try. Look at Harley Davidson, the motorcycle equivalent of Fender. sh*te old bikes with engines designed in the 1920s. HD decided to make a determined push forward and came up with a design that was radically different for them (bringing them forwards to at least the 1980s), and then stuck with it despite criticism from the small-minded HD fanbois. 15 years or so on, the V-Rod design is doing well.

It's a shame that Fender have taken over brands like Genz Benz and Takamine. I really can't see those takeovers being any good for the products (Takamine) or the derivatives of the products (Genz Benz). Maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing if Fender, the bloated parasitic organism, died, and left its offspring, Fender CS, Squier in each country independently, Genz Benz, Takamine, and whoever else, to sort themselves out on the world stage.

[1] It's not "Squire", no matter how many times you dullards try to spell it like that. You really should have it tattooed in mirror writing on your foreheads.

Edited January 3, 2015 by tauzero

[Mornats]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1420257707' post='2647296']
[1] It's not "Squire", no matter how many times you dullards try to spell it like that. You really should have it tattooed in mirror writing on your foreheads.
[/quote]

It's an easy typo and one that auto-correct loves to use. And "dullards"? C'mon, don't start that!

[taunton-hobbit]

Beside - Chris Squires (Yes, wot woz) legal team would have all their Christmases come early!