Fender, In trouble?

[stingrayPete1977]

I've started a jazz V thread to save derailing this one, I'm not sure me buying one USA deluxe is going to help with the 250 million debt but you know, watch the Pennies and all that!

[JTUK]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1413883691' post='2583013']
Thanks for the info the vm and deluxe keeps getting a good mention on here, bit more home work online then a shopping trip I think, white fender deluxe V blocks and bound rosewood finger board is top of my list right now, I've got gigs in the diary to pay for it too which is the main thing
[/quote]

The American Deluxe is the only one I'd look at. I've played a couple and I think you can get them to where you want them set-up wise ( whihc you'd dame well expect ) and the finishing touches or block and bound on RW is the way to go. My next best will have this spec...and it may well be a J5 U.s Deluxe if I don't commsion a Sei..
I would put the finish up there with a quality MM S5. They may come across as a bit chunky, so check the weight, if that matters to you, but I think they are very solidly built and finished from what I've seen. I think just shy of £1500 new is just about right. Any higher and they'd lose out to others.
If I saw the right spec for £1000 SH, I'd be very interested.

[Norris]

Once upon a time you had a choice of Jazz or Precision. Now there are simply too many different options. Just looking at US-made basses there are a bewildering array of "base" models, vintage models, and complete over-saturation of signature models (who are all these people?!). Then multiply that by MIM/CIJ/MIJ/Squier. The result is that it would take weeks of research to decide which particular model you think you want - and then have no hope of finding an example of that particular one in any physical music shops.

IMHO though, the worst shot in the foot are the excellent quality basses coming out of Squier at the moment. Why would you pay Fender US prices that approach the cost of a custom build, when Squier do very similar basses, of very giggable quality for a tiny fraction of the price?!

[MiltyG565]

I hear the news today is that Takamine are now being distributed by Korg.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1414151999' post='2586442']
Once upon a time you had a choice of Jazz or Precision. Now there are simply too many different options. Just looking at US-made basses there are a bewildering array of "base" models, vintage models, and complete over-saturation of signature models (who are all these people?!). Then multiply that by MIM/CIJ/MIJ/Squier. The result is that it would take weeks of research to decide which particular model you think you want - and then have no hope of finding an example of that particular one in any physical music shops.

IMHO though, the worst shot in the foot are the excellent quality basses coming out of Squier at the moment. Why would you pay Fender US prices that approach the cost of a custom build, when Squier do very similar basses, of very giggable quality for a tiny fraction of the price?!
[/quote]
This is spot on imo, I'm not looking at the specific models much because I want to try before I buy so it will be dependant on a few shop's stock, at the same time top of my list is a Deluxe USA Jazz V £1550 ish but I'd have no problem in walking out with a Squier version if I felt it was really good, and people say they are.

[Mornats]

I've always felt that Fender never had enough variation in models and in particular never had enough variation in colours and styles. I do think that the various levels of bass (by which I mean Squire, Mex, Chinese, US, standards, specials etc.) is too varied with not enough to distinguish between them in terms of quality. I agree with what Norris said about about that. The differences in price do not match the differences in quality.

[Funky Dunky]

Some really knowledgable people making some exvellent points in this thread.

I can't be nearly as insightful when it comes to brand, its corporate history or the current market, but it's been really interesting reading this thread.

As far as Fender goes, my views are thus:

Whenever I am in the market for a bass, there will always be a couple of Fenders on the shortlist - but I no longer view them as special. An industry standard, sure - but no longer synonymous with fine craftsmanship (off the shelf) and no longer among the more desirable brands. To me, Fender have become too mass-produced to be of the highest quality, and their product range seems ridiculously diluted by models which seem to me to be unnecessary. Plus, and I get snob points for this, the company (IMO) have been too quick to churn out signature models for ANY Tom, Dick and Harry, seemingly in the name of cashing in on the 'Yoof of Today' and that has hurt the brand in my eyes.

The acquisition of many fine independent brands has also irked me immensely, and what has become of those fine brands? I realise that corporate buyouts are part and parcel of business, but I like the little guy and I prefer to see him stand in the market.

I've read some things in the last couple of years which suggested Fender has become a monster, a dictatorship which is strangling music dealerships. If this is true, I would find it hard to weep for Fender if the once-proud brand found itself in difficulty.

[afterimage]

Quality control and components are the most important considerations now the far east are coming on leaps and bounds the squire range a case in point though I love my fender deluxe jazz 2013

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1414261223' post='2587720']
I've always felt that Fender never had enough variation in models and in particular never had enough variation in colours and styles. I do think that the various levels of bass (by which I mean Squire, Mex, Chinese, US, standards, specials etc.) is too varied with not enough to distinguish between them in terms of quality. I agree with what Norris said about about that. The differences in price do not match the differences in quality.
[/quote]

I think they have too much choice. How would one ever decide?

Some people think as much choice as possible is fantastic, but it isn't, because it's daunting and off-putting for customers. Just look at their Strat range. Absolutely endless. 15 pages of Strats on their website. In what volume are they selling each and every version to justify 15 pages worth of product variations?

Maybe that's where they're going wrong - too much choice. Too much invested in slight variations of the same product. If I had any persuasion within Fender, I'd be looking to cull a few lines and consolidate the range.

As it is, their variations are a bit mad. Sometimes you see a colour you like, but it's not available on the guitar you like. I presume that's most a cost-saving measure. I would think if the range was consolidated that they could offer all their guitars in all finishes (and do some limited-production "special" finishes to peak the interests of the hardcore fans).

Those are just my thoughts on it. I don't really know of any brand where expanding the range (beyond a certain point) expands the profits. In fact, one of the biggest companies in the world only offers a few variations of each product, and they have millions in cash reserves - Apple.

[miles'tone]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1414362391' post='2588701']


I think they have too much choice. How would one ever decide?

Some people think as much choice as possible is fantastic, but it isn't, because it's daunting and off-putting for customers. Just look at their Strat range. Absolutely endless. 15 pages of Strats on their website. In what volume are they selling each and every version to justify 15 pages worth of product variations?

Maybe that's where they're going wrong - too much choice. Too much invested in slight variations of the same product. If I had any persuasion within Fender, I'd be looking to cull a few lines and consolidate the range.

As it is, their variations are a bit mad. Sometimes you see a colour you like, but it's not available on the guitar you like. I presume that's most a cost-saving measure. I would think if the range was consolidated that they could offer all their guitars in all finishes (and do some limited-production "special" finishes to peak the interests of the hardcore fans).

Those are just my thoughts on it. I don't really know of any brand where expanding the range (beyond a certain point) expands the profits. In fact, one of the biggest companies in the world only offers a few variations of each product, and they have millions in cash reserves - Apple.
[/quote]

Random observation:
This reminds me of Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares. He'd show up at some failing restaurant to troubleshoot and get them back on track, turn them into a little goldmine. Usually the restaurant was overstretching themselves with too many choices on the menu, therefore spending a fortune on stock, customer relations not so great, etc..
Ramsey would always slash the menu down to a handful of dishes and concentrate on doing those dishes incredibly well.
Cue excellent word of mouth, reputation restored, everyone happy..kerching!!

Should've given Gordon the job instead of fu**ing Bono.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='miles'tone' timestamp='1414363965' post='2588720']
Random observation:
This reminds me of Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares. He'd show up at some failing restaurant to troubleshoot and get them back on track, turn them into a little goldmine. Usually the restaurant was overstretching themselves with too many choices on the menu, therefore spending a fortune on stock, customer relations not so great, etc..
Ramsey would always slash the menu down to a handful of dishes and concentrate on doing those dishes incredibly well.
Cue excellent word of mouth, reputation restored, everyone happy..kerching!!

Should've given Gordon the job instead of fu**ing Bono.
[/quote]

Indeed! No company can be all things to all people, and sometimes a company has to keep focus, be ruthless, and simply say no to themselves.

There was a show on a few years ago where a UK furniture company was going bust, and this person came in and asked how many lines they had, and it was thousands! They cut it down to a few hundred and focused on marketing those lines and making them well, and their profits increased.

It's not rocket science. Less lines to manufacture, less money tied up in stock, training, specialist machines etc etc

[Mornats]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1414362391' post='2588701']
Just look at their Strat range. Absolutely endless. 15 pages of Strats on their website. In what volume are they selling each and every version to justify 15 pages worth of product variations?
[/quote]

I actually think the problem lies in that they have Strats, Teles and Jaguars and not much else. They are, as you rightly say, putting too much choice within these. I think they need more variations in model rather than as many variations within each model range if you know what I mean? You should be able to choose a jazz, a precision, a jag, and several more models rather than have to choose between 25 different jazz models. Then I think the decision becomes easier and you don't have to go to Ibanez for a nice, lightweight active bass for example.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1414524723' post='2590284']
I actually think the problem lies in that they have Strats, Teles and Jaguars and not much else. They are, as you rightly say, putting too much choice within these. I think they need more variations in model rather than as many variations within each model range if you know what I mean? You should be able to choose a jazz, a precision, a jag, and several more models rather than have to choose between 25 different jazz models. Then I think the decision becomes easier and you don't have to go to Ibanez for a nice, lightweight active bass for example.
[/quote]

Yes, you're probably right.

We had a sales rep in the shop earlier, and he was talking us through the range of SX guitars that they have, and it's very simple, but they sell very well. They basically produce 2 or 3 different ranges across all their Fender copies, so they have a Vintage range, or a Swamp Ash range etc etc

Maybe Fender should consider consolidating. Again, if I had any persuasion within Fender, I'd be pushing to implement a couple of ideas.[list]
[*]Consolidate the ranges - reduce the number of ranges, and then reduce the choice within those ranges, but roll it out to more products
[*]Offer a modification service - Allow people to select some of the parts they want installed on their instrument (limit this to a few easily installed items to keep costs down - I'm thinking pickups+electronics
[*]Offer better choice of colours across the entire range. Possibly do a range-specific "special" colour. Easily distinguished and encourages people to buy.
[/list]
Basically, I'd be trying to bring it into the 21st century. Don't get me wrong, they make some fantastic looking and sounding guitars, but I just can't see how a range so large across so few instruments could ever be a massive money maker. It's top-heavy IMO. Squeeze it all down, and then make a range called something like "Premier Edition" where they can sell their limited edition (what are currently full-run productions) guitars. Other than that, I'd simplify the hell out of it, and make it entirely uniform. I think it would annoy some people, but I think most wouldn't care (and I think it would actually help those people decide what to buy).

However, I don't like how it appears they're moving towards direct-to-consumer sales. At the same time, though, it would level the playing field for guitar shops (especially small ones with no hope of getting Fender on board with them).

[Mornats]

Sounds like a plan Milty

I remember someone posted a link to the Fender custom bass builder than pretty much let you build one of around 4 basses (including all colour combinations) in their range. Or in other words, if you trawled the list of Fenders on any guitar shop site you could pick out anything you could make in the custom builder. It was a very pointless tool in my opinion. My main trouble with Fenders is trying to find one that's a little bit individual. I think Fender have been taking notes from Henry Ford - you can have any colour so long as it's three-tone sunburst.

[stevemaiden]

The Chinese built Squire 5 string J bass I recently acquired is every bit as goos as the 1979 P bass I had in the 80's, if not better! I'm currently considering a Chinese "Fender" Jazz 5 modern player.

The Chinese bass was spot on for me out of the box, I remember having to shim the neck on the 79 P bass to get a lower action.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1414527166' post='2590333']
Sounds like a plan Milty

I remember someone posted a link to the Fender custom bass builder than pretty much let you build one of around 4 basses (including all colour combinations) in their range. Or in other words, if you trawled the list of Fenders on any guitar shop site you could pick out anything you could make in the custom builder. It was a very pointless tool in my opinion. My main trouble with Fenders is trying to find one that's a little bit individual. I think Fender have been taking notes from Henry Ford - you can have any colour so long as it's three-tone sunburst.
[/quote]

3-tone sunburst really works for Fender, though. It's not really my cuppatea, but people do like it. That's why they produce so many sunburst instruments - it's a safe bet.

But this is what I'm saying - if they reduced the range, then every so often ran a "special" colour, people would buy it. I'm pretty sure colour/appearance is quite a deciding factor for most people.

[icastle]

The fortunes of FMIC has been a slow and inexorable slide over a number of years and I think we're getting pretty close to 'crunch time'.

They have 4 guitar models that work - Strat, Tele, Precision and Jazz.
All these Mustangs, Jaguars and acoustic instruments are niche products and just don't belong in the portfolio.

The Fender brand itself has been devalued by inexcusable QA issues, manufacture outsourcing and the Squier brand which, if what I'm reading on BC is true, performs almost as good as US Fender stuff.

Add to that the lack of a half decent amplification range for donkeys years and it's no wonder they're floundering.

I don't know how FMIC work, but I do know how businesses fail and there should be some seriously worried execs sitting in the board room.

[spacey]

Remember going in to town to see the USA Fenders and dreaming of owning one, left school got a job and bought one on HP.
Spent many a night with the polishing cloth, it was a very proud instrument to own.

These days, you dont know if its a sweat shop chinese knock out or a USA bass.
The brand has become the Netto of basses, they do good stuff and they also do far more cheap tat.
The brand just has no value any more.
At Least Rickenbacker have stuck firmly to their guns and refused to make cheap knock off replicas.

Can it ever be brought back ?
I doubt it unless they start a trade in scheme giving the Chinese instrument owners a big discount on the real Mcoy.

Had one of those modern player Chinese Jaguars to fix, strap button would not stay on.
The wood a few MM was like balsa wood, had to drill a two inch hole and epoxy resin the screw in just get get it to stay in.
Sold it on rather quickly...

[Norris]

Having said all that, I quite like that they've reissued Bass VIs, Coronados and Starcasters. I can't justify buying any more guitars though.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1414529914' post='2590390']
Can it ever be brought back ?
[/quote]

I'd like to think so. I don't know how far gone they are, but until the shutters are pulled down, it's always worth a shot. And if it's managed right, it can be turned around.

I would have thought Fender could afford the best and brightest to make them money. Right off the top of my head, I thought of a few things which I think almost certainly would increase profits. Maybe it's a case of "can't see the woods for the trees" for Fender execs?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1414527991' post='2590356']


3-tone sunburst really works for Fender, though. It's not really my cuppatea, but people do like it. That's why they produce so many sunburst instruments - it's a safe bet.

But this is what I'm saying - if they reduced the range, then every so often ran a "special" colour, people would buy it. I'm pretty sure colour/appearance is quite a deciding factor for most people.
[/quote]
This is how Musicman do it, collectors buy everything in a special finish, I dont go on the MM forum but I understand some people have dozens of the same model, then regular people like most of us also might fall for a 'Dargie Delight' or 'Sledge' which makes a sale. The colours are changed but the whole range gets the new finish which I presume keeps costs down. At the same time they have a totally confusing range like Fender now!

I might still buy a Fender on saturday though

[Pinball]

My personal experiences of trying and buying both lead and bass guitars over the last few years is that certain brands continually impress, while I am wary of others, for example.

The brands I trust: Musicman, does what it says on the tin, Sterling-the SterlingRay's and cheaper SUB range are great for the price, All of the German Sandbergs I tried were nice,, Burns Guitarst-now Asian built and better than ever and finally Ibanez, Yamaha and Schecter, where quality through the range is superb and matched to price.

Then there are a bunch of "must try before you buy" either because the ranges are confusing or the quality is variable. This is where Fenders are, with others along with Asian Overwaters and Tanglewoods, Probably Spector's too as I'm never sure how I feel about them until I pick them up

Last is a bunch of brands that seem to have lost their way in my view. This includes Epiphone, Dean and Peavey and what about Warwicks? well seeing as I can't find anywhere in the UK to try them-how does that work as a marketing strategy? I love their old stuff but have no idea on their new kit.

Fender have lost it despite producing some great instruments.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Pinball

[Drax]

[quote name='Pinball' timestamp='1414566781' post='2590647']
...and what about Warwicks? well seeing as I can't find anywhere in the UK to try them-how does that work as a marketing strategy? I love their old stuff but have no idea on their new kit.
[/quote]

It's a pretty arrogant strategy from Warwick. Jack up the pricing and force dealers to buy outright? Was genuinely up for buying a new one but didn't want to plunge straight in without at least trying something current.

GAK in Brighton are meant to be a flagship importer / dealer, but they can't risk carrying the £3-4k guitars as unsold stock, so don't carry any.

Edited October 29, 2014 by DanR

[skankdelvar]

Certain inconvenient facts emerge from the swirl of opinion:

* Fender is the world's leading musical instrument brand with #1 market share in the USA for guitars, basses and amplifiers. FMIC turns over around $700m a year and - in terms of its core brand sales - is perfectly healthy. This at a time when other brands are disappearing or licensing their names to - er - Fender.

* Fender's share of the guitar, bass and amplifier market has continued to grow since the introduction of the multi-model, multi-price point business model, even during the downturn in the musical instrument market dating from around 2011. This would suggest that the 'confusing number of models' has - in fact - been a highly successful business strategy. Buyers seem to like the idea of greater choice and have voted with their wallets.

Events show that those who would have preferred the company to slash itself back to producing only expensive replicas of old designs in a few colours would have backed the wrong horse.

* On annual sales, FMIC [i]as a whole[/i] is only marginally profitable due to faulty corporate strategy enacted by its owners. FMIC would probably have cleared its historic debt overhang with its IPO had the company not put too many of its eggs in the Guitar Centre basket (due to conflicting ownership interests) and not bought the massively over-valued Kaman corporation. There is no problem with the core Fender guitar and bass operation but rather with the implementation of FMIC Group sales and corporate acquisition strategies.

* Fender (like the other great amp brand Marshall) has more or less vacated the bass amplifier market whereas sales of Fender guitar amplifiers have increased dramatically since the early 2000's. The multi-level, multi-price point model has worked well for the guitar amps though there remains a market gap between the Chinese imports and the 'low-end' Mexican and American products.

* Published instances of recurrent or systemic Fender QC problems are vanishingly rare by comparison to Gibson and - only a few years ago - Rickenbacker. A cursory inspection of the numerous forums devoted to Fender and to specific Fender guitars (e.g. TDPRI) supplies proof - were it needed - that Fender guitars and basses are - on the whole - reliable products.


The rumours swirling around FMIC have almost nothing to do with Fender brand guitars / basses / amps or the 'end-user experience'. We think we know what we're talking about. But the fact is that BC comprises a small, closed group of (mostly) hobbyists with narrow opinions based on little more than window-shopping and some experience of a few instruments over the years. We might 'know our Fenders' but we know next to nothing about the industry or the company which puts them in our hands.

And - as recent IPSOS surveys have shown - what we [i]think[/i] we know about [i]anything[/i] is almost always wrong.

Edited October 30, 2014 by skankdelvar

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1414640901' post='2591726']
Certain inconvenient facts emerge from the swirl of opinion:

* Fender is the world's leading musical instrument brand with #1 market share in the USA for guitars, basses and amplifiers. FMIC turns over around $700m a year and - in terms of its core brand sales - is perfectly healthy. This at a time when other brands are disappearing or licensing their names to - er - Fender.

* Fender's share of the guitar, bass and amplifier market has continued to grow since the introduction of the multi-model, multi-price point business model, even during the downturn in the musical instrument market dating from around 2011. This would suggest that the 'confusing number of models' has - in fact - been a highly successful business strategy. Buyers seem to like the idea of greater choice and have voted with their wallets.

Events show that those who would have preferred the company to slash itself back to producing only expensive replicas of old designs in a few colours would have backed the wrong horse.

* On annual sales, FMIC [i]as a whole[/i] is only marginally profitable due to faulty corporate strategy enacted by its owners. FMIC would probably have cleared its historic debt overhang with its IPO had the company not put too many of its eggs in the Guitar Centre basket (due to conflicting ownership interests) and not bought the massively over-valued Kaman corporation. There is no problem with the core Fender guitar and bass operation but rather with the implementation of FMIC Group sales and corporate acquisition strategies.

* Fender (like the other great amp brand Marshall) has more or less vacated the bass amplifier market whereas sales of Fender guitar amplifiers have increased dramatically since the early 2000's. The multi-level, multi-price point model has worked well for the guitar amps though there remains a market gap between the Chinese imports and the 'low-end' Mexican and American products.

* Published instances of recurrent or systemic Fender QC problems are vanishingly rare by comparison to Gibson and - only a few years ago - Rickenbacker. A cursory inspection of the numerous forums devoted to Fender and to specific Fender guitars (e.g. TDPRI) supplies proof - were it needed - that Fender guitars and basses are - on the whole - reliable products.


The rumours swirling around FMIC have almost nothing to do with Fender brand guitars / basses / amps or the 'end-user experience'. We think we know what we're talking about. But the fact is that BC comprises a small, closed group of (mostly) hobbyists with narrow opinions based on little more than window-shopping and some experience of a few instruments over the years. We might 'know our Fenders' but we know next to nothing about the industry or the company which puts them in our hands.

And - as recent IPSOS surveys have shown - what we [i]think[/i] we know about [i]anything[/i] is almost always wrong.
[/quote]

Well that pretty much sums it up really...