how powerful does my head need to be?

[ben1]

Some years back when I were a nipper......me and the old man put a cab together, a combination of 2 Eminence speakers, and their trusty manual. It comprised a 15' and 10' speaker. Each is 100 w (certainly no more than 150w) at 8ohm. Both wired to the same jack socket.

I seem to remember it sounded nice once upon a time with a borrowed Fender BXR 400....but that was some 16years ago so those memories may be somewhat rose tinted!

Anyway, I finished my band not short afterwards and as a result never picked up a head for it. Now I'm back playing at last, and in the market for a head - any ideas what sort of power rating I should be looking for ? As I don't want to be gigging with a second cab, would it be worth wiring up an individual input for each cone?

Cheers,
Ben

[Stan_da_man]

I would say 250w min. I gig with a 300w 2x10 and that's plenty loud for me. Usually it's going through the P.A. anyway so as long as you can hear yourself fine (your amp would be your own monitoring system) then it's OK.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='Stan_da_man' post='252997' date='Aug 1 2008, 09:25 PM']I would say 250w min. I gig with a 300w 2x10 and that's plenty loud for me. Usually it's going through the P.A. anyway so as long as you can hear yourself fine (your amp would be your own monitoring system) then it's OK.[/quote]

+1
Yeah, I use a Hartke HA5500 that kicks out about 350w@ 8ohms, running a 2x15 and I've *never* pushed it past 30% on an indoor gig!


good luck with your search, try and find somewhere you can try out a lot of heads, and also take your own bass along. I've always thought that trying gear out in a shop with a bass that isn't yours is like getting someone else to test-drive a car for you...you want something YOUR bass sounds good thru, not what the SHOPS bass sound good thru!

[warwickhunt]

My head's not very powerful at all on a Friday night... Friday night's all right for Pizza & wine

[bass_ferret]

Did your cab have a crossover - if not it should probably have one.

[thumperbob 2002]

The most powerful head you can afford- nothing less than 200W for medium size gigs I have a marshall vba 400 which is a monster- much too loud but I like a lot of headroom- your cab will be important too.

cheers

Bob

[gilmour]

I think power is almost immaterial, especially given the manufacturers obsession with quoting the highest numbers possible, and it varies massivley form make to make. I used to run a Trace Elliot that was 125W and it was much louder than my current amp which is an Eden at 235W.

[SteveO]

[quote name='ben1' post='252972' date='Aug 1 2008, 09:34 PM']Some years back when I were a nipper......me and the old man put a cab together, a combination of 2 Eminence speakers, and their trusty manual. It comprised a 15' and 10' speaker. Each is 100 w (certainly no more than 150w) at 8ohm. Both wired to the same jack socket.

I seem to remember it sounded nice once upon a time with a borrowed Fender BXR 400....but that was some 16years ago so those memories may be somewhat rose tinted!

Anyway, I finished my band not short afterwards and as a result never picked up a head for it. Now I'm back playing at last, and in the market for a head - any ideas what sort of power rating I should be looking for ? As I don't want to be gigging with a second cab, would it be worth wiring up an individual input for each cone?

Cheers,
Ben[/quote]

I read that post as "what head should I use for my old cab that I built with my dad" rather than a general what head should I get question.
so, if the drivers are 8ohm each and they're wired in parallel then the cab will be 4ohm, with a rating of somewhere between 200 and 300 W

It's safest to buy a head rated at max 200W @ 4ohms, but the problem with this is that there just might not be enough grunt and then you'll be looking at buying a new cab AND a new head.

As you can see from the other posts, 200W would be the absolute bare minimum that pretty much anyone on here would use. you could risk pushing as much as 300W through the cab, how hard you push it depends on how much heartache it'll cause if you blow a speaker.

My suggestion - and I admit that it's a little risky - is that you get whatever head you like (forget about matching the power to the cab, check out the other threads here, there's loads of good advice which I won't attempt to replicate) When you next look at buying a cab then match the cab to the head, in the meantime just don't run the head at full whack so as not to blow your cab. A simple rule of thumb is that if your head's rated at 400 W then half way on the master vol will be about 200W. NOTE - THIS IS NOT ACCURATE, so care is needed. My head is rated at 450W, I have 2 cabs (300W each) sometimes i'll only gig with the 2x10 if it's a small venue, keeping the dial under halfway, and i've never had a problem.

[umph]

[quote name='SteveO' post='253543' date='Aug 2 2008, 10:50 PM']I read that post as "what head should I use for my old cab that I built with my dad" rather than a general what head should I get question.
so, if the drivers are 8ohm each and they're wired in parallel then the cab will be 4ohm, with a rating of somewhere between 200 and 300 W

It's safest to buy a head rated at max 200W @ 4ohms, but the problem with this is that there just might not be enough grunt and then you'll be looking at buying a new cab AND a new head.

As you can see from the other posts, 200W would be the absolute bare minimum that pretty much anyone on here would use. you could risk pushing as much as 300W through the cab, how hard you push it depends on how much heartache it'll cause if you blow a speaker.

My suggestion - and I admit that it's a little risky - is that you get whatever head you like (forget about matching the power to the cab, check out the other threads here, there's loads of good advice which I won't attempt to replicate) When you next look at buying a cab then match the cab to the head, in the meantime just don't run the head at full whack so as not to blow your cab. A simple rule of thumb is that if your head's rated at 400 W then half way on the master vol will be about 200W. NOTE - THIS IS NOT ACCURATE, so care is needed. My head is rated at 450W, I have 2 cabs (300W each) sometimes i'll only gig with the 2x10 if it's a small venue, keeping the dial under halfway, and i've never had a problem.[/quote]
sounds quite bad if your overdriving the speaker

you should go for a old tube head like a sound city 120 or a ampeg v-4 or something around 100watts! will be plenty loud and be a perfect match for your cab

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='SteveO' post='253543' date='Aug 2 2008, 10:50 PM']I read that post as "what head should I use for my old cab that I built with my dad" rather than a general what head should I get question.
so, if the drivers are 8ohm each and they're wired in parallel then the cab will be 4ohm, with a rating of somewhere between 200 and 300 W

It's safest to buy a head rated at max 200W @ 4ohms, but the problem with this is that there just might not be enough grunt and then you'll be looking at buying a new cab AND a new head.

As you can see from the other posts, 200W would be the absolute bare minimum that pretty much anyone on here would use. you could risk pushing as much as 300W through the cab, how hard you push it depends on how much heartache it'll cause if you blow a speaker.

My suggestion - and I admit that it's a little risky - is that you get whatever head you like (forget about matching the power to the cab, check out the other threads here, there's loads of good advice which I won't attempt to replicate) When you next look at buying a cab then match the cab to the head, in the meantime just don't run the head at full whack so as not to blow your cab. A simple rule of thumb is that if your head's rated at 400 W then half way on the master vol will be about 200W. NOTE - THIS IS NOT ACCURATE, so care is needed. My head is rated at 450W, I have 2 cabs (300W each) sometimes i'll only gig with the 2x10 if it's a small venue, keeping the dial under halfway, and i've never had a problem.[/quote]

With all due respect there is so much tosh in there that I don't know where to start!

[SteveO]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='253555' date='Aug 3 2008, 12:56 AM']With all due respect there is so much tosh in there that I don't know where to start![/quote]

LOL. Go on then John, put me straight

Edited August 3, 2008 by SteveO

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='SteveO' post='253599' date='Aug 3 2008, 08:09 AM']LOL. Go on then John, put me straight [/quote]

I read that post as "what head should I use for my old cab that I built with my dad" rather than a general what head should I get question.
so, if the drivers are 8ohm each and they're wired in parallel then the cab will be 4ohm, with a rating of somewhere between 200 and 300 W

It's safest to buy a head rated at max 200W @ 4ohms, but the problem with this is that there just might not be enough grunt and then you'll be looking at buying a new cab AND a new head.
[b]
[i]You can run an amp rated way higher or lower than the cabs rating with no ill effect... so long as you use your ears! You'd also need to know the sensitivity rating of the speaker. A quality speaker with good spec may well need a lot less watts than a cr*ppy badly designed one. In fact don't some of the designs being build by various BCers require very little power to sound good![/i][/b]

As you can see from the other posts, 200W would be the absolute bare minimum that pretty much anyone on here would use. you could risk pushing as much as 300W through the cab, how hard you push it depends on how much heartache it'll cause if you blow a speaker.

[b][i]I've gigged putting 1000watt amps through cabs rated @ 150 watts for continuous periods of time and several of those cabs are still going to this day. In fact our Peavey PA has been gigged for 16 years, has the original drivers and tweeters and though the cabs are rated at 350 watts I've driven them with various power amps from a minimum of 1200watts up to 2500watts... and the amps have been running with the outputs on full [/i][/b]

My suggestion - and I admit that it's a little risky - is that you get whatever head you like (forget about matching the power to the cab, check out the other threads here, there's loads of good advice which I won't attempt to replicate) When you next look at buying a cab then match the cab to the head, in the meantime just don't run the head at full whack so as not to blow your cab. [b][i]see above[/i] [/b]

A simple rule of thumb is that if your head's rated at 400 W then half way on the master vol will be about 200W. NOTE - THIS IS NOT ACCURATE, so care is needed.

[b][i]Sorry Steve, just not true! I'm sure Messrs Claber, BFM etc can enlighten as to the science of that but speaking purely from almost 30 years gigging experience, I've had amps that at 50% output on the dial they have given their all and have nothing in reserve (Trace Elliot owners - do I lie?) whilst I've had amps that @ 50% have barely begun to come alive (Who owns a H&K Bassbase 250 amp or combo... my old one is around here somewhere) and EVERYTHING happens in the last 50% of travel. This is assuming that input gains have been matched as best as possible using the available indicators AND my ears [/i][/b]

My head is rated at 450W, I have 2 cabs (300W each) sometimes i'll only gig with the 2x10 if it's a small venue, keeping the dial under halfway, and i've never had a problem.

[b][i]I the last 6 mths alone I've ran a 150 watt amp into my 2100watt 6x10 cab... no issue, I used my ears. Conversely, at rehearsal I've ran a Tech 21 sans amp into a 1000 watt bridged amp into the speaker of a very old combo that was rated at 100watts.[/i][/b]




Honestly Steve there are so many variables, even within my experiences listed above (mid-biased amps - sounding louder/non-linear inputs & outputs/VU meters or indicators that are Mickey Mouse etc etc) that you genuinely just have to virtually ignore manufacturers quotes and trust your ears. I'd agree that you should always buy the best and highest rated amp that you can as it's far better to have too much power (headroom) than not enough but don't get hung up on facts and figures.

How's that compressor going anyway Steve?

Edited August 3, 2008 by warwickhunt

[waynepunkdude]

[quote]amps that at 50% output on the dial they have given their all and have nothing in reserve (Trace Elliot owners - do I lie?)[/quote]

Very true on my Trace I think they just stuck the 6,7,8,9 and 10 on the volume knob for the symmetry

[OldGit]

If you are starting back gigging you may want to look more at what you need rather than starting from what you have ..

I'd recommend you consider putting that cab back where it's been sleeping and try a modern combo or 9 before just going out and buying a head ...

For the money a decnt head will cost there will be loads of 200-300 watt combos that will save your back, do the job well and sound great.

Get one with an extension cab socket and you can take the old one with you for big gigs.

[bass_ferret]

to quote the first rule according to Alex: [size=3][b] You can use any power ouput amp with any power handling cab. If any of these combinations makes bad sounds then turn down and/or stop cranking the bass EQ excessively or damage may occur[/b][/size]

I too would be tempted to junk the home made cab. Whether you use a combo or head and cab is a matter of personal choice and transport considerations. But with heads as tiny as some of the new Class D designs I think there are plenty of head/cab combinations that are conna be smaller than most giggable combo's - but they cost.

[ben1]

Cheers for the advice guys,

Summising all that, 'use your ears' seems to be speaking the loudest to me! I'll trial a bit of kit and report back.....

Ben

[martthebass]

I was worried about pairing a LM250 (150W at 8, 250W at 4 Ohm) with my 8 Ohm MB 151 HR (rated at 400W). I've found it has plently for medium sized gigs but the 'drummer' is fairly tame - never need more than about 40%. If I need any more I DI but I guess if I was in a 5 piece and the PA was 'weak' I'd go to the LM2 (350W at 8 Ohms). This set up sounds much 'louder' than my Trace 150W 15" combo (4 Ohm).

I guess the sensitivity of the cab is also important (the MB is 100db/W) - or is this tosh?

Edited August 3, 2008 by martthebass

[OldGit]

Try an Ashdown little giant 350
[url="http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?id=8586"]http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?id=8586[/url]

[Musky]

[quote name='OldGit' post='253715' date='Aug 3 2008, 01:31 PM']Try an Ashdown little giant 350
[url="http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?id=8586"]http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?id=8586[/url][/quote]

Are these things actually available yet? They've been advertised on various sites for months but I noticed Dolphin has them slated for delivery at the end of August.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='martthebass' post='253714' date='Aug 3 2008, 01:29 PM']I guess the sensitivity of the cab is also important (the MB is 100db/W) - or is this tosh?[/quote]
No - if you have a high sensitivity cab you need less watts. I gigged happily for years with 100 watts and a sensitive cab. One of the guys who regularly plays in one of the pubs I drink in uses an old Selmer Treble and Bass 50. When I started playing there were not many amps that put out more than 200 watts and we was all gigging quite happily.

[OldGit]

[quote name='ben1' post='252972' date='Aug 1 2008, 08:34 PM']Some years back when I were a nipper......me and the old man put a cab together, a combination of 2 Eminence speakers, and their trusty manual. It comprised a 15' and 10' speaker. Each is 100 w (certainly no more than 150w) at 8ohm. Both wired to the same jack socket.

I seem to remember it sounded nice once upon a time with a borrowed Fender BXR 400....but that was some 16years ago so those memories may be somewhat rose tinted!

Anyway, I finished my band not short afterwards and as a result never picked up a head for it. Now I'm back playing at last, and in the market for a head - any ideas what sort of power rating I should be looking for ? As I don't want to be gigging with a second cab, would it be worth wiring up an individual input for each cone?

Cheers,
Ben[/quote]


Ben,
What's your budget?
OG

[51m0n]

In average land, you'd be looking for a clean 300w head and a 'proper' cab to gig almost any small to medium gig - bigger than medium and you wan to go vi athe PA.

Thats just IMO. To be fair I run with more watts (500w) and a cab capable of handling a huge amount more watts again (850w) if you just go by the ratings, but I really like the way it all sounds together, and never want to feel like I having to push my gear hard to be heard.

If you like the sound of effortless bass get more watts and keep it turned down.

[ben1]

I'd be looking be looking around the 200 pound mark, Mr. Git.....

I've been trawling the second hand listings for weeks, so (based on 2nd price and what's been commonly cropping up) currently on the shortlist are Ashdown Mag 300, GK Backline 600, Warwick profet 3.2. Thus far I've borrowed a Laney rb4 combo for gigs; it was wired up to the PA, but I didn't like it at all.

I think the warmth of a valve amp would better suit my playing style (soul, blues, bit of funk) but to be honest I could do without the weight and possible maintenance issues - given that my budget will probably mean getting an old one...is that a fair judgement?!

To be honest I don't need to be super loud; we have a PA if needed and our drummer is not too mental - but just needed to know what would be enough powerwise to drive the speakers properly without destroying them

Cheers
Ben