Playing by ear. Good or bad.

[jakenewmanbass]

It's overlooked in some quarters, there is all the nuance, personality and character of music available when learning by ear, it should form part of any serious study of an instrument.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413907588' post='2583455']
But you'll never get offered those gigs if you can't do both.
[/quote]
But ^ this will always remain true (shhh Doddy )

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413907588' post='2583455']

But you'll never get offered those gigs if you can't do both.
[/quote]

But I don't want to do theatre or cruise ship work. Therefore I don't need both.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413907588' post='2583455']
But you'll never get offered those gigs if you can't do both.
[/quote]

...but this is patently not true, or only for Western music. There are many Oriental virtuosi who have only ever learnt and played by ear; it's their musical tradition. All is not Mozart; there are other idioms.

[Doddy]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1413907860' post='2583462']


But I don't want to do theatre or cruise ship work. Therefore I don't need both.
[/quote]
Neither did I.....but I get them because I can do both.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413908095' post='2583467']


...but this is patently not true, or only for Western music. There are many Oriental virtuosi who have only ever learnt and played by ear; it's their musical tradition. All is not Mozart; there are other idioms.
[/quote]
Of course that's their tradition.There is nothing wrong with that, I've never said their is.There are great players all over that play by ear. What i pointed out was that the guys who have a good ear and can read will get more work opportunities than having just one or the other. That's why guys like Nathan East and Will Lee and Steve Pearce are so busy.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413908109' post='2583468']
Neither did I.....but I get them because I can do both.
[/quote]

[ambient]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1413907338' post='2583453']
You don't 'need' both unless you're likely to do a gig where it's essential that you read.
[/quote]

OK, I'll rephrase it, if you're in any way shape or form, half serious about playing for a living, then you need both

No theatre MD, or professional band will wait while you pick the part out by ear.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1413908800' post='2583483']
OK, I'll rephrase it, if you're in any way shape or form, half serious about playing for a living, then you need both
[/quote]

OK, add 'as a session musician' in there and we have a deal :-)

[SteveK]

I think we're talking about 2 slightly different things here:

1. Sitting down at your old 33rpm turntable (I'm old) and trying to figure out a part by repeatedly playing that part of the record - effectively, trial & error!
2. The ability to hear a tune, bass part, or whatever, and play it straight off without having to figure it out first.

The first, we all do, or have done.
The second is an acquired skill that many musicians haven't acquired.

Seems the OP is well on his way to achieving the second

[JapanAxe]

Years ago I learned my scales on skinny-string guitar and found that this vastly improved my ability to play by ear - and to 'sight-sing'!

[discreet]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1413886059' post='2583057']
It's all I do...
[/quote]

Me too. Everything's bloody hard work otherwise!!

[ubit]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413907588' post='2583455']

But you'll never get offered those gigs if you can't do both.
[/quote]

Sorry mate but that's a load of tosh. My girlfriends brother can't read music but is an absolutely amazing guitarist. He plays with really high standard musicians who all get annoyed at him because he just plays by ear. They have to study their parts and he just turns up and plugs in and away he goes. I, to a much lesser extent, do the same when I'm playing in my pub band. I think venues couldn't give a rats whether you can read music as long as you can make a nice noise!

[peteb]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1413927685' post='2583830']


Sorry mate but that's a load of tosh. My girlfriends brother can't read music but is an absolutely amazing guitarist. He plays with really high standard musicians who all get annoyed at him because he just plays by ear. They have to study their parts and he just turns up and plugs in and away he goes. I, to a much lesser extent, do the same when I'm playing in my pub band. I think venues couldn't give a rats whether you can read music as long as you can make a nice noise!
[/quote]
The point is that there are plenty of incredible musicians who can’t read a note (Jeff Beck, Billy Sheehan, etc, etc). But unfortunately these guys never get to play the cruise ships!

Of course if you do want those types of gigs you do need to be able to read. However, if I was to be a bit contentious, I would suggest that the best musicians who can read tend to be those who learnt to play first then learnt to read afterwards. IME some guys who learnt to play by reading tend not to develop their ear as well as those who did not start off by reading notation…

[lojo]

Years back there was no internet so I learned all covers by ear (rewinding tapes, moving the needle on records etc), so I guess I have that skill to a certain extent.

Nowadays, I'll do the same with CDs/mp3s , but will occasionally search for chords , I know they are not 100% but they can point in the right direction and save a little time (at least with structure even if not with the lines). Also slow down type software and the ability to loop really helps with learning fills/runs accurately.

So I don't read or know theory , but I'd never be so arrogant to say that more knowledge wouldn't improves ability to work songs quickly.

Like others have said I'm not wanting cruise ship or theater gigs, but I have bee in situations where sheet music has been used and I wish I could sight read. Fortunately I managed to get through, but it wasn't fun.

Edited October 22, 2014 by lojo

[ubit]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1413932251' post='2583897']

The point is that there are plenty of incredible musicians who can’t read a note (Jeff Beck, Billy Sheehan, etc, etc). But unfortunately these guys never get to play the cruise ships!

Of course if you do want those types of gigs you do need to be able to read. However, if I was to be a bit contentious, I would suggest that the best musicians who can read tend to be those who learnt to play first then learnt to read afterwards. IME some guys who learnt to play by reading tend not to develop their ear as well as those who did not start off by reading notation…
[/quote]

You quoted me but clearly didn't read my post. My girlfriends brother gets MANY really high end gigs just because people know he is amazing. He has turned down the chance to be a pro on so many occasions. He just likes his family life too much to make the leap. He is well known in the right circles and people never ask him, can you read music? He can get a tune out of any stringed instrument with absolutely no formal training whatsoever. So, I reiterate, if you are good enough, you don't need to read music!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1413965445' post='2584019']
You quoted me but clearly didn't read my post. My girlfriends brother gets MANY really high end gigs just because people know he is amazing. He has turned down the chance to be a pro on so many occasions. He just likes his family life too much to make the leap. He is well known in the right circles and people never ask him, can you read music? He can get a tune out of any stringed instrument with absolutely no formal training whatsoever. So, I reiterate, if you are good enough, you don't need to read music!
[/quote]

I think you quoted peteb but didn't read his post, either.

He seems to be broadly agreeing with you...

[ubit]

No, he said you can't get these gigs if you can't read music

[stingrayPete1977]

That's only ever going to work in a pre rehearsed situation though, it's still noodling he's just good at noodling that's all. Noodling won't get you a Broadway or west end show gig, your going to say he doesn't want that I know but the point is he WOULD be missing out on potential work. Of course this is tosh anyway because your girlfriends brother could be professional but is in fact not.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1413966195' post='2584029']
No, he said you can't get these gigs if you can't read music
[/quote]

It's fair to say that's not the norm, though. If a bandleader is expecting to hear the dep bassist play a specific part, the dep is going to struggle without dots.

[skej21]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1413897196' post='2583251']
The thing is is loads easier/quicker to learn just by listening if you understand some theory, if you understand the concept of the key and can work out by ear what key it is in (my CDs don't have key signatures in the sleeve do yours?) Then there is going to be less trial and error notes.
[/quote]

I was playing along by ear to Heavier Things (album John Mayer) the other day whilst her indoors was reading through the booklet and she said 'did you know the key etc is all written down for every song on the album in here? That's quite cool'... You're right though, I don't look in there for that info before I start but I might im future if it's going to save me a bit of time lol!

Edited October 22, 2014 by skej21

[ubit]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1413966368' post='2584033']
That's only ever going to work in a pre rehearsed situation though, it's still noodling he's just good at noodling that's all. Noodling won't get you a Broadway or west end show gig, your going to say he doesn't want that I know but the point is he WOULD be missing out on potential work. Of course this is tosh anyway because your girlfriends brother could be professional but is in fact not.
[/quote]

Yeah I understand what you are saying but what I'm saying is, you are unlikely to be asked to play in a band at a high end gig using just music notes. Even the best musicians like rehearsal. Some musicians can and do, improvise on the spot and do a great job. Alls im saying is reading music, whilst it undoubtedly helps, is not the be all and end all if the musician is good enough and has a reputation that precedes him/ her, then top end gigs are available if you move in the right circles

Edited October 22, 2014 by ubit

[stingrayPete1977]

Probably be possible with Itunes to link the key and the dots commissioned by the artist when it's released, that would be cool!

[skej21]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1413966987' post='2584049']


It's fair to say that's not the norm, though. If a bandleader is expecting to hear the dep bassist play a specific part, the dep is going to struggle without dots.
[/quote]

Damn right! Gigs with dots tend to use them for specific cues and timings (such as theatre etc) or because the MD wants a very specific arrangement where the parts are preconsidered. Having your mate who is great at noodling turning up and playing really high end noodling that works with great with all of his other bands at all the wrong moments makes him a bad player (in that specific context). Just because you are a good bluffer in certain situations doesn't mean you're a musician who can step into any musical situation and play an appropriate part in an ensemble. Same goes in reverse of course. Some gigs require a certain freedom of expression that would be too time consuming to sit and notate for someone who is only capable of strictly following dots.

I think the point Doddy is making is that, if you want to become a professional musician (whether that REQUIRES reading or not), there's no harm in developing those skills. Even if youre a full time, playing for a living bassist who never reads for his money, learning to read can give you an insight into how other bassists, instrumentalists, composers or MDs view your instrument and its context. The amount of lines I've seen on reading gigs that give in an insight into how the pianist thinks a bass line should go, or seeing how another bassist has written a fill, it gives you extra information that makes ALL aspects of your musical communication more effective in ensemble settings (regardless of it being a reading of non-reading gig!) or when playing in solo settings.

Trying to improve your general musicianship by developing as many skills as possible is only ever going to help you improve. Refusing to do something because you never use it seems like a slightly negative approach to me.

Just my view of course :-)

Edited October 22, 2014 by skej21

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1413967863' post='2584061']
Yeah I understand what you are saying but what I'm saying is, you are unlikely to be asked to play in a band at a high end gig using just music notes. Even the best musicians like rehearsal. Some musicians can and do, improvise on the spot and do a great job. Alls im saying is reading music, whilst it undoubtedly helps, is not the be all and end all if the musician is good enough and has a reputation that precedes him/ her, then top end gigs are available if you move in the right circles
[/quote]

No-one is arguing with that.

But the types of gig we're referring to in our little tangent is the likes of theatre and cruise ships, where the ability to read is pretty much expected for the reasons skej21 just mentioned.

If you're a busker / ear-learner, you're probably not going to fit.