stingrayPete1977 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 There are lots more crap players that can't read or play by ear than there are sh*t hot readers that can't improvise or learn a track by ear so anyone given the task of recruiting members for the band is going to hedge their bets hiring a reader, if they suck at reading or their general playing sucks they get sacked. That is the nature of every profession isn't it? I'm an electrician but I don't know much about electronics in machines for example so I either don't get asked or I have to pass the work on which is exactly what a high profile but non reading bassist friend of mine does, I also know for a fact Doddy and Jake are busier than my friend work wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1413909188' post='2583490'] I think we're talking about 2 slightly different things here: 1. Sitting down at your old 33rpm turntable (I'm old) and trying to figure out a part by repeatedly playing that part of the record - effectively, trial & error! 2. The ability to hear a tune, bass part, or whatever, and play it straight off without having to figure it out first. The first, we all do, or have done. The second is an acquired skill that many musicians haven't acquired. Seems the OP is well on his way to achieving the second [/quote] Agree. 1 should lead to 2 pretty easily if your ear is good and relatively educated. How you get 'educated' is the part you need to search out and work on.. but you can't really busk unless you can hear changes and also have a decent idea of where the tune will go. The goal should be that you know a classic, and you can hear the changes/intervals you just need to know when. You don't have to have played the song before, but you have heard it enough... There are many obvious progressions and I was bemused recently when some 'experienced' local players tried to cope with a blues band sit-in and didn't do too well. This was mainly because they couldn't feel their way thru the changes on 'Rocky Mountain Way' ( for example ) and weren't really sure what a 12 bar could turn out to be. The starts and endings were a mess and you'd have to summise that they had NO experience in this area. As a dep bassist, this is pretty fundemental and you need to get past trip-ups like that if you want to dep ... and save yourself a few roastings, as this does not get you asked back.. Then, you'll see the need for chord charts/cheat sheets/dots from the band leader..which will be written out as a band Pad, and you need to be able to make sense of them. If you want/need those dates. The other way is to be so comfortable in your musical circle that you basically play the same sort of set with a different line up and your biggest problem is transposing keys and handling the odd variation of the song format... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1413966368' post='2584033'] That's only ever going to work in a pre rehearsed situation though, it's still noodling he's just good at noodling that's all. Noodling won't get you a Broadway or west end show gig, your going to say he doesn't want that I know but the point is he WOULD be missing out on potential work. Of course this is tosh anyway because your girlfriends brother could be professional but is in fact not. [/quote] 'Professional' just means someone does it full time for a living in this context, it is not an indication in itself of how good someone is. That is plain to see every week, IMO. There are amazing perfect pitch type players but they are not the norm, IME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Exactly, Guigsy was (is?) a professional bass player! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scojack Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) I started playing by just picking up and copying what i heard and developed a pretty good ear. Years later i decided to take things a wee bit more seriously and learn to read. (I was never given the opportunity to take up an instrument or do 'proper' music at school). I found reading music and practising my sight reading very difficult. Every time i got through a piece (were not talking anything major here btw) i would remember it, so next play through i wasn't sight reading it any more just playing from memory again. Now i know this is what musicians do all the time, when you know the dots your only really using the music to keep track of where you are but i really feel it was more difficult for me than it needed to be, reading a new piece straight from the music seemed to take me back twenty steps again. My advice would be ...if you are serious, develop your ear but start learning to read early on, you don't have to be able to rattle out C minor prelude off the bat but it will be better for you later on in your career to have that basic grounding to build on. Edited October 22, 2014 by scojack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1413971214' post='2584118'] Exactly, Guigsy was (is?) a professional bass player! [/quote] Who he..? .or is that a generic name ...?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 After everything said above, ears / reading skills etc are all great tools which help and open doors, but the only thing that really counts if you are playing in situations you are happy with, is the performance on the actual songs you play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1413973977' post='2584177'] Who he..? .or is that a generic name ...?? [/quote] Early oasis, but you can also "do a guigsy" I suppose but I'm not going to mention Adam Clayton at this stage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 The answer to the thread title is a no brainer IMO. Any skill that enhances your playing and enjoyment of music, is worth having. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 The real question is what do you want to do with your bass playing. If you only want a hobby and a knock around with your mates then you don't need to know much. If you want to take your playing as far as you can then education should be very important to you. Every aspect you don't know is a limitation that can "hurt" you. I know guys who like my playing but won't book me because I don't sing, another because I don't play double bass. I don't see why electric bass won't work in a Rock-a-Billy band, but decisions made by others always affect and limit your life in music. Don't give them a stick to beat you. If you're in any way serious you have to be able to play by ear and you have to understand music as it relates to your instrument. Reading the dots can be very helpful, but tab isn't a thing you have to learn to be a complete player. My heroes Pino, Duck Dunn and John McVie can't read music, but Jamerson, Nathan East and Wilton Felder can. The great thing about rock is that you can do a little, all or none of this and still be a good bass player, but whatever you do you'll do it better with a good ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1413980952' post='2584331'] The great thing about rock is that you can do a little, all or none of this and still be a good bass player, but whatever you do you'll do it better with a good ear. [/quote] I would agree with that - and it applies to all genres, imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Yeah, sorry. . . I meant rock as a generic term covering everything electric since the 50's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1413981518' post='2584349'] I meant rock as a generic term covering everything electric since the 50's. [/quote] I'm going to do that from now on. I'm sick of telling people we're a screamo-house/doom-alt jazz-trap/bop outfit. Edited October 22, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 This has been three pages discussing a skill that more or less anyone has. The ability to play along with a piece of music you haven't been taught. Obviously this depends a great deal on the difficulty of said piece, but most people are going to get at least the gist of a piece, ie. The key it's in and basic root notes, so what is the real argument here? No one is arguing that being able to read music is going to hinder you or affect your ability to improvise. There is however an opinion that not being able to read music, is going to stop you getting a decent job in the music business. Whilst I agree that some venues will be snobbish enough to insist on this skill as a minimum, I also think that many places will book artists on their pedigree and word of mouth. It's all down to the particular venue and the particular artist. I can't read music and have no intention of learning, so I'm just gonna keep learning by ear. It's done me for a good few years with no problem, although I've never tried for a cruise ship or west end show. Dog and duck it is then ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='ubit' timestamp='1413984717' post='2584402'] Dog and duck it is then! [/quote] Quite. Or Wembley Arena. it's all relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='ubit' timestamp='1413984717' post='2584402'] This has been three pages discussing a skill that more or less anyone has... [/quote] Are you certain of that..? I have evidenced (too many times..!) folks singing along horribly, clapping off-time, mass slaughter of even such well-known ditties as the National Anthem (never heard football or rugby teams before an international match..?), and that's just vocal..! Our 2nd guitar only plays by ear, but boy, does he struggle to 'capture' the tonality of a piece..! It's not uncommon to be 1 fret away, for a whole solo, or to confuse a major with a minor. No, imo not everyone is gifted with an ear for music; in fact I'd say quite the opposite. Most folks will bugger it up. Sad..? Certainly. [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 The venue isn't booking the bass player though, they are booking what they hope is a good band, the person in charge of putting the band together for a show picks the band, if they are hiring an unheard bass player and there are notes available for the show which bassist are you going to hire? Knocking out rehearsed covers like most of is do is fine, it might take you longer to learn but as long as you do before the gig that's ok, could you dep the entire bass line to every song in The Lion King for TONIGHT by ear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) [quote name='ubit' timestamp='1413984717' post='2584402'] This has been three pages discussing a skill that more or less anyone has. [/quote] Unfortunately this has not been my experience with a lot of people I have come across. Being the old dinosaur that I am, in retrospect, I consider myself lucky to have been forced to learn by ear, due to the internet not being in existence. These days too many people rely on tabs (nothing wrong with this if it's not totally relied upon) for even the simplest of songs and lack the skills required to work things out by ear. Edited October 22, 2014 by Coilte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413986151' post='2584428'] Are you certain of that..? I have evidenced (too many times..!) folks singing along horribly, clapping off-time, mass slaughter of even such well-known ditties as the National Anthem (never heard football or rugby teams before an international match..?), and that's just vocal..! Our 2nd guitar only plays by ear, but boy, does he struggle to 'capture' the tonality of a piece..! It's not uncommon to be 1 fret away, for a whole solo, or to confuse a major with a minor. No, imo not everyone is gifted with an ear for music; in fact I'd say quite the opposite. Most folks will bugger it up. Sad..? Certainly. [/quote] Yep... some people just hear so much more and then some. It is a skill level just like anything else. But...if you don't recognise that, and people can't hear where they are wrong..and others with a better ear or musicality can and do.. well, that is something that seperates the levels that people can play at. It isn't the only factor, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2004gdavi Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 With rock music it's perhaps not so difficult. You are playing three chords to hundreds of people. But with jazz it's hundreds of chords to three people so following a pattern by ear isn't always that easy. Seriously though both reading and playing by ear are useful skills. It's just that some types of music favour one approach over another. It would take a brave person to turn up at an orchestral event and busk Mozart. The only way to completely expand your horizons is do both but if you can't do one it's not the end of the world as there is still plenty of playing to be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413986151' post='2584428'] mass slaughter of even such well-known ditties as the National Anthem (never heard football or rugby teams before an international match..?), [/quote] I know that feeling (silence rather than slaughter)....At a recent dep function I did, the old school toast master came up at the end and said to the audience,,,, "All rise for the Queen"....the Drummer obliged with the Snare roll intro...this went on for ever....and ever.... Guitarist and Keyboard players shrugging their shoulders and not a single note...... Edited October 22, 2014 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1413990298' post='2584499'] I know that feeling (silence rather than slaughter)....At a recent dep function I did, the old school toast master came up at the end and said to the audience,,,, "All rise for the Queen"....the Drummer obliged with the Snare roll intro...this went on for ever....and ever.... Guitarist and Keyboard players shrugging their shoulders and not a single note...... [/quote] [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 ha ha ...now, that is a tune that someone should at least be able to start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1413990513' post='2584506'] ha ha ...now, that is a tune that someone should at least be able to start... [/quote] Sure...it was me....and the toastmaster.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1413990986' post='2584512'] Sure...it was me....and the toastmaster.... [/quote] Good save, job done, the bass player rescued it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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