PA sub woofer advice needed (Yamaha DXS12 or DXS15?)

[TheRev]

Hi All.

My band have been upgrading our PA from our trusty but tired Peavey/Behringer PA system to something more suited to larger venues and cider festivals.


We've bought a pair of Yamaha DXR 12s as PA tops and have been runnng these on their own for a couple of months. We're very happy with these speakers, but we are pushing them at some of our bigger gigs, so we've decided to add a pair of the matching Yamaha DXS subs to the system.

The DXS subs come in two flavours - 12" and 15". Both have 950W power amps, the 15 goes down to 45Hz compared to the 12's 47Hz and the 15 pushes 132dB compared to the 12's 131dB.

So, my question is: how much of a difference is there likely to be between the 12 and the 15 in real terms? We will be putting drums and double bass through the PA (hence the addition of subs).

I appreciate that the 15 will put out more bass when running at full tilt compared to the 12, but we're not playing dub step or anything, so will the extra performance of the 15 be worth the extra cost and weight?

Churrz!

Dave

[JTUK]

If you can carry them and weight isn't the issue then the 15 makes sense.
We ran DXR12's and DXS12 sub and it handled it well.
We would struggle outside with 1 sub and bass gtr generally wouldn't go through it.
I think the DSR12 is capable and light... never looked into the DXS15 as weight was king.
Our plan was to run 2xDXS12 subs and full band which I think that would do a small beer festival outside
and 200-300 ppl inside..??

FWIW... we thought the tops compared very well against our QSC rig as the tops are pretty smooth and not peaky/harsh
which we found other tops to be.

Edited October 22, 2014 by JTUK

[TheRev]

Thanks for that JTUK -really helpful!

The weight isn't huge issue (they'll be humped around in the guitarist's van) - I just don't want to have to lump two bloody great boxes around if we don't need to.

Our usage will be exactly as you describe - 200-300 capacity rooms and small outdoor festivals. We ran just the DXR12s at a small stage (say 200 people) at a festival this year and they just about coped with everything except the dub-ska band, so I'm fairly sure that adding the DXS 12s would do everythng we needed.


Cheers!

Dave

[JTUK]

Even the DSR 12 is a two man lift really but fits is a car back seat ok. I forget how heavy it is,
and at a push you can carry it but you really shouldn't IMO.
As long as you have 2 ppl always prepared to move them, then I think the 15 would be worth it..
We never really found out the DSR12 but we were reasonable with our expectations, I think.
Outside, 200 ppl will need 2 subs and you can't be canning the P.A, hence why I carried a bigger
bass rig but will 2 15's, you may be able to put bass and full kit there and no over run the tops as far as
the vox are concerned.
Having said that... we never had the master top gain on anything above 12 o clock and they were loud enough.
I would say 200 ppl inside might be getting near its max if a full band mic up.

But I do like the tops... good value for money and good sounding, IMO. Our vox liked them better than K12's
and I didn't think they were outclassed.

[Phil Starr]

OK this is entirely from a technical point of view. I haven't used these speakers.

A 15" speaker has roughly 60% more surface area than a 12" so at the bass end will be louder assuming all else to be equal.

Ignore the power output of the amp. These amps will drive both speakers way beyond what they can handle at low frequencies but the built in software protects the speakers so they are pretty bomb proof, if you do overload them they just gently turn themselves down for a fraction of a second and you probably won't ever notice this happening as the effect is subtle. The whole thing is engineered to squeeze everything out of the speakers by giving more power than is needed and controlling it carefully so the limits are of the speakers not the amps.

When you are playing outside the bass is radiated 360 degrees, (actually in a sphere). Indoors walls, ceilings, floors all reflect that sound back to the audience and increase the bass, usually by about 6dB, the equivalent of using 4x the amplification. In addition you usually find people spread out more so you need maybe 10x the power and much bigger speakers to maintain the same sound. I don't think you can afford to carry a no compromise PA capable of giving the same sound at an outdoor gig. The 12's aren't going to be enough outside, the 15's a bit better but nowhere near enough.

If you are the bassist then I don't think you would expect to get a lot of bass out of a 2x12 without PA support outdoors, though it would be perfectly adequate in most venues. It's pretty much the same for your PA, in fact it is exactly the same.

I'd go for the 15's but I don't have to carry them. The decision is down to convenience though, 95% of your gigs you'll hear no difference. For the outside gigs you'll get the extra 60% of deep bass to help towards the 400% extra you'll need to make up for what you lose due to room reflections. If you take a bigger bass stack and turn the PA up full you won't be far off your indoor sound and it will be better than the PA tops on their own

Edited October 23, 2014 by Phil Starr

[goblin]

The band I used to play with had a DXR12 pair, and a DXS15 sub. I don't really know the ins and outs, but it sounded good and the sub could be lifted by just myself (I'm only 5'6 and skinny!)

[TheRev]

Cheers for the advice guys - sounds like the 15s are the way to go.

Not too worried about the weight, the guitarist will be doing most of the lifting. :-D