Help a newbie with his speakers/drivers

[88reaper88]

[size=4]Hi,[/size]
[size=4]I'm in the planning stage of building a cab. [/size]
[size=4]I've been trying to find some speakers/drivers that I can afford (skint!) and I've found some Celestron B[/size]L10-200X 10" 200W 8 Ohm Green Labels that seem perfect price, power and ohm-wise.
Does anyone own these or know how good they are?

[stevie]

It's a very nice driver - works best in multiples of 2. If you've got a good price you won't be disappointed.

[88reaper88]

Good to hear, and I was planning a 2x10 so that's also good
They're £55 each (brand new), is that a good price? Couldn't find any cheaper.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

They would not be my first choice. The 73Hz Fs is too high. Assuming that you don't know what that means, required reading:
http://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/

[88reaper88]

I've been doing my homework, yes I've worked out the volume for the cab, drawing up the plans too.
Haven't found a driver with a lower Fs in my price range. (If you know of a particular one then please let me know )

[stevie]

You can't make any kind of judgement on a speaker on the basis of a single T/S parameter. That's a nicely specified driver for bass guitar, as you would expect from Celestion.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

You might want to take a look at this thread

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/227904-1x12-cab-design-diary/

The Beyma SM212 driver (tested in the prototype cabs) is very well specified and costs £79 at blue arran.

[Phil Starr]

If you go on the thread above you'll find some data from TKS engineering about the distribution in power between the fundamental and all the harmonics a bass puts out.

Those Celestions will have very little output below 100Hz once they are in a cab, which will raise the resonant frequency even higher than 79Hz. Basically you will have almost no fundamental in the bottom octave of a 4 string. However it is the harmonics which give us most of what we hear anyway. Putting these speakers in a small cab will give a big bass boost in the 100-200 Hz range which will probably make them sound bassy or boomy depending upon your standpoint.

These speakers are going to have a very 'old school' sound, lacking in deep bass and a bit indistinct in the bass area but possibly warm and punchy. Deep bass is often quite an embarrassment in a lot of rooms with poor acoustics creating a lot of boom as they excite room resonances so it isn't all bad. Because of the high fs and the fairly limited excursion of these speakers you'll need to limit the deep bass going to them, I wouldn't use any bass boost and think in terms of deliberately filtering out the low bass with something like a Thumpinator.

As ever the advice is the same, if you are doing this to get a cheap cab then buying used is a better bet. If you just want the satisfaction of using something you've made yourself and to start learning about how speakers work and are prepared to take a risk on how they sound then welcome to the club.

[Phil Starr]

Oh if you want something that does go lower than the Celestions then the Beyma SM110's look promising at a similar price. Be prepared to wait for delivery though [url="http://www.bluearan.com/index.php?id=BMASM110N&browsemode=category"]http://www.bluearan....semode=category[/url]

There's a thread on here from someone (fleabag) who tried these speakers and had a positive result [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/235679-can-i-improve-my-cab-at-all/page__hl__beyma%20sm110__st__30"]http://basschat.co.u...20sm110__st__30[/url]

Edited October 24, 2014 by Phil Starr

[88reaper88]

Thanks ALLOT for that info Mr Starr.
My bass is normally down tuned so the lower frequencies are important.

I also play with a plec (yeh, yeh, heard it all before) how will the added treble effect what speakers I would be best suited to?

[Phil Starr]

Now you are into the realms of taste really. Both speakers have a moderate upper mid peak which will enhance those frequencies a characteristic shared by most 10" drivers. Whether you like that sound or not and whether you need something to enhance the higher frequencies or are happy to have the speaker reduce the pick and string noise is something we all see differently. the trouble with building yourself is that by the time you try it it's too late to take it back.

[88reaper88]

If only I could make two cabs and test them out!

[88reaper88]

Might just buy a Harley Benton BB210T cab... Works out cheaper

[stevie]

Sorry guys, you're just wrong.

I've run the figures for the Celestion 10 through a simulation program and you'll find the curve below. So that we have some kind of yardstick for comparison purposes, I've also simulated the Eminence Kappalite 3012LF.

For those reading this thread who aren't familiar with the Kappalite, it is considered by many to be one of the best woofers of its kind, used in the Fearful range of boxes as well as the Barefaced Big Baby and the AudioKinesis Thunderchild. You won't find it in many mainstream commercial cabinets as it was designed purely as a woofer and needs a midrange driver to work properly. Nobody has complained that this driver does not go low enough. Ever. Its published Fs is 37Hz, although I measured even lower, at 34.5Hz.

So, how does the Celestion BL10 with its Fs of 73Hz fare against the big, bad, fat Eminence woofer?

[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/24ls8xk.jpg[/IMG]




Well, there's not a lot in it. Between 40 and 50Hz they are neck and neck. The Eminence has about 3dB more output between 60 and 100Hz, which will be noticeable although not staggeringly so.

Bear in mind that the Eminence is a 12" driver in a cabinet 50 percent bigger than the Celestion's. At high power the Eminence wins, but add another Celestion 10 and the balance moves strongly towards the Celestion. By no stretch of the imagination could this speaker be described as lacking output below 100Hz.

The Beyma looks interesting. With its cast chassis and slightly lower price, it looks like better value than the Celestion. It won't go lower than the Celestion though, and it probably won't handle as much power. Still, if I were in the market, I might be tempted to go with Phil's suggestion.

Anyway, let me make the point that there is a bit more to Thiele and Small than drawing diagrams with WinISD.

[Phil Starr]

Stevie strikes again

Now I'm going to have to run the models and investigate a bit more. I'd looked at Qts and Fs done a quick calculation of f3 the -3dB point and left it at that, dismissing a speaker that starts to roll off albeit gently at 150Hz ish. To a certain extent it depends upon whether you think 3dB is significant or not. I think it is, as I find in listening tests that the balance between high and low frequencies is something we really notice.

It's also true that the 3012HO has a gentle roll off due to a moderately low Q. Comparing it with another speaker would yield a different result. I'd also be interested to know what size box you modeled Stevie. I'm only getting a plot this shape for the Celestion in a fairly large box.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1414136681' post='2586188'] Oh if you want something that does go lower than the Celestions then the Beyma SM110's look promising at a similar price. Be prepared to wait for delivery though [url="http://www.bluearan.com/index.php?id=BMASM110N&browsemode=category"]http://www.bluearan....semode=category[/url] There's a thread on here from someone (fleabag) who tried these speakers and had a positive result [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/235679-can-i-improve-my-cab-at-all/page__hl__beyma%20sm110__st__30"]http://basschat.co.u...20sm110__st__30[/url] [/quote]I was really excited when I first looked at the SM110. I have just done a quick winisd plot of the SM110. It has a great frequency response in a 40L box but xmax is exceeded in the at very low power (approx 75 watts) . This means that it is 3-6dB down at 70Hz. I will recheck later but at the moment the Fane 10-300 looks. a better bet

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1414325852' post='2588211']
I was really excited when I first looked at the SM110. I have just done a quick winisd plot of the SM110. It has a great frequency response in a 40L box but xmax is exceeded in the at very low power (approx 75 watts) . This means that it is 3-6dB down at 70Hz. I will recheck later but at the moment the Fane 10-300 looks. a better bet
[/quote]Good call. One cannot look at a sensitvity plot alone. Below are shown the Celestion (red) compared to the Eminence 3010LF (green), both in 45L. If all you look at is the top sensitivity trace then there would seem no real advantage to be had with the 3010LF. Looking at the middle maximum power and lower maximum SPL traces reveals a very different story:



While you're at it model the Eminence BP102.

[quote]If only I could make two cabs and test them out![/quote]Theile and Small rendered that necessity obsolete circa 1970.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Phil Starr]

Theile Small calculations are fantastic for modelling the bottom end but tell you almost nothing about the way a cab will sound. I built a cab with the Fane 10-300's and at the bottom they sound as predicted, really rather good but, the trouble is they are so neutral at the top end they sound rather dull and boring, they don't go particularly high either, I've bought a 6" to try to add something to this cab but I haven't got round to trying anything yet, they make nice PA monitors with a decent horn though.

In the end I swapped out the 10-300's for Fane 10-125's which sound much nicer, unfortunately Fane have since changed this speaker into something I can't imagine anyone using, God knows why.

Funnily enough I was drawing up a shortlist for a 2x10 today and thought the Legend BP102 worth a second look, I also thought the Basslite S2010 looked interesting but is likely to be expensive over here.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='88reaper88' timestamp='1414165910' post='2586663']
Might just buy a Harley Benton BB210T cab... Works out cheaper
[/quote]

If what you want is a cheap entry level cab and to just get on playing then you won't be able to match these prices by self building. By the time you've built the cab it'll cost you £50 add in the speakers and you are looking at £150 min. You won't beat Chinese mass production in building a cheap cab.

[88reaper88]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1414345885' post='2588484']
If what you want is a cheap entry level cab and to just get on playing then you won't be able to match these prices by self building. By the time you've built the cab it'll cost you £50 add in the speakers and you are looking at £150 min. You won't beat Chinese mass production in building a cheap cab.
[/quote]

Exactly my thinking, I want to play bass not gain a masters degree in acoustics.
I shall tackle a cab when money is no option.
But a huge thanks to the help

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='88reaper88' timestamp='1414348980' post='2588526']
...not gain a masters degree in acoustics. [/quote]If you do you'll have something to fall back on when your playing days wind down.
When I played bass five nights a week this is what I drove from gig to gig:



I don't gig much anymore, but I play golf seven days a week, and this is what I drive to and from the course:

Edited October 26, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[88reaper88]

I'd rather have the van

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='88reaper88' timestamp='1414358999' post='2588655']
I'd rather have the van
[/quote]So would I, when I was 23 and on the road. But to paraphrase an old movie scene, "BMW. It's a little too small to get laid in. But you get laid the minute you get out".
And we all know from sad experience it's not the bassplayers who get the women, it's the drummers.

[Chienmortbb]

Phil, I have only modelled the 10-300s so you are one up on me. Although with the frequency plot on the data sheet I am surprised they sound flat at the top end.

Regarding the new 10-125 I agree it models like a dog and looking at the TS you can see why.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Chienmortbb

[Phil Starr]

Fane describe the 10-300 as having a 'smooth' response and it is flatter than many 10's, most have a fairly prominent peak in the 1-4kHz range which gives the speakers colouration which sounds quite nice with bass, or maybe that peak is so ubiquitous we have just come to expect it.

My confession is that I'm going out with the SM212's which are fairly flat but my graphic looks like the frequency response you get from a cheap Eminence stuffed into a too small a cab. The 10-300's just didn't sound very interesting with bass. Nothing wrong but they just lacked character.