Denmark St under threat of redevelopment

[Happy Jack]

In an area of largely spurious "heritage", the 12-Bar Club is one of the few places that I'll be sad to see vanish.

Almost any documentary you can see about the music scene in London in the 60s will have footage of either a band playing in there, or of punters queuing outside it.

But the Marquee left Wardour Street many years ago, the Astoria was demolished a few years back, and somehow the contemporary London music scene seems to have survived.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1414795112' post='2593521']
I probably have as little faith in councils and planners as you do but the musical heritage that was Tin Pan Alley went years ago. It is a shadow of what it was in the 50s and 60s.
[/quote]

I think I first visited Denmark Street about 10 years ago. After I got over the initial shock of seeing so many guitar shops in one place, I felt a bit disappointed. I dunno, maybe I had been expecting too much, but it had been sold to me as this place where rock history had been made, and I was anticipating some kind of quasi-religious experience. The impression I got was that any "soul" that had lingered in the air there had long since evaporated, and now they were just going through the motions.

S.P.

[Musky]

[quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1418660553' post='2632069']
The 12 bar Club has recently announced its closure in January 2015. From their Facebook page at [url="https://www.facebook.com/12BarClub"]https://www.facebook.com/12BarClub[/url]

"We are very sad to announce that The 12 Bar Club has been given notice to vacate Denmark Street by the middle of January.

The 12 Bar Club will live on

We will announce details of our new location shortly"
[/quote]
John Robb was on Radio London this morning, spelling out the demise of the 12 Bar and most of the music shops in the street. Lots of pop up shops are promised apparently.

In more positive news, Pete Townshend is now on board with the campaign. It would be good to see a few more name bands get behind it as well. Like Jack, it's the 12 Bar that I'd miss most and hopefully it might yet be saved in the same manner as the 100 Club was a few years ago.

[Moos3h]

I've never liked the 12 bar much so wouldn't mourn it's loss, but i have to admit to feeling sad I might not be able to walk my boy down Denmark Street and have him soak in the history like happened with me and my Dad.

That being said, some of those buildings are a health and safety risk, I am sure. Anyone remember the cellar at Andy's? *Shudder*

Cheers,
James

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1414786554' post='2593404']
I think Kiwi wrote about this a few years back when the plans for the Crossrail development around Tottenham Court Road was announced, but to be honest I didn't think it would happen. The north side of Denmark St consists of 17th century buildings and the 12 Bar Club in particular still has the old forge of the blacksmiths on the site.
[/quote]
You, Sir, have an outstanding memory. Yes, I did write about it as I was leading the design of the area around St Giles High Street and Centre Point Tower at the time. Consolidated Developments own most of the block and I had a conversation with the owner at the time about their plans. I imagine the time is right now that Crossrail is about to come on line in the next few years.

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='Moos3h' timestamp='1418668140' post='2632173']

That being said, some of those buildings are a health and safety risk, I am sure. Anyone remember the cellar at Andy's? *Shudder*

[/quote]

Haha, oh yes. Back in 1993 Andys had these gigantic wooden window protectors that would go up at night. They were seriously heavy so as a little 15 year old kid I used to struggle to lift them off easily on a Saturday morning. By the time I got midway down the alley to set them down for the day my arms would be knackered and I'd drop them to floor, only for the lovely Graham Noden to come up from the cellar to tell me how he gets covered in dust from the ceiling every time I drop them!

Graham has been there for donkeys and it'll be a sad day when he leaves. It's a funny looking cellar but the vibe is always good. Luckily that's a listed building with cheaper rent than the rest so hopefully it'll stay rock n roll, oh yeah, and wonky!

[Number6]

The Saxophone shop which i think is in between Wunjo's and Wunjo's Bass has closed and moved out....apparently there is going to be an alleyway between those shops.

[taunton-hobbit]

Sorry to go on - but Denmark Street has changed totally over the years, along with most of London - I'd like to see 'Tiles' still there, but I guess Jim Marshalls heirs might have their own take on that one.............it's what's relevant to you, as an individual, that creates the static, and it's just that that town planners have to modify/disregard unless development & progress are to wither on the vine, Out here in Real World land, music history like the Railway Hotel Wealdstone, Taggs Island and The Star & Garter (Windsor) are allowed to crumble away without all this commotion....just cos it's in London don't make it special.............How about starting a thread of 'important' venues that just don't exist anymore ? - Nags Head, High Wycombe & the Bull at East Sheen for starters - off you go chaps.............

[Number6]

Ruskin Arms, East Ham and the Canning Town Bridgehouse

[Musky]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1418668329' post='2632177']
You, Sir, have an outstanding memory. Yes, I did write about it as I was leading the design of the area around St Giles High Street and Centre Point Tower at the time. Consolidated Developments own most of the block and I had a conversation with the owner at the time about their plans. I imagine the time is right now that Crossrail is about to come on line in the next few years.
[/quote]
I've still got the PDF of the management strategy that you linked to. Scanning through it again it's interesting how some o the concerns raised seem to have been ignored.
[quote name='taunton-hobbit' timestamp='1418679732' post='2632342']
Sorry to go on - but Denmark Street has changed totally over the years, along with most of London - I'd like to see 'Tiles' still there, but I guess Jim Marshalls heirs might have their own take on that one.............it's what's relevant to you, as an individual, that creates the static, and it's just that that town planners have to modify/disregard unless development & progress are to wither on the vine, Out here in Real World land, music history like the Railway Hotel Wealdstone, Taggs Island and The Star & Garter (Windsor) are allowed to crumble away without all this commotion....just cos it's in London don't make it special.............How about starting a thread of 'important' venues that just don't exist anymore ? - Nags Head, High Wycombe & the Bull at East Sheen for starters - off you go chaps.............
[/quote]
I have no problem with change, but do disagree that development and progress go hand in hand. The development of Euston station is a good example, which just the other day I heard described as the greatest example of post-war civic vandalism in London. The old station had to go, but what replaced it very poor both in function and architecturally.

I never had the opportunity to visit any of the venues you mention but have heard of some. Perhaps if people had defended them they might have survived a bit longer? That's all I'd like for the 12 Bar - although you might not consider that it's in the real world, it's in my neighbourhood and so it seems pretty real to me.
[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1418683891' post='2632415']
In the world of many Basschat members Denmark Street is probably paved with 1951 Precisions and change is a thing that must be resisted and Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin and ELO are the crazy cutting edge of rock. Meantime in the real world i agree with you.
[/quote]
I have no such illusions thank you. I'd just like to see what is my favourite venue in London spared from this development.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1418718909' post='2632533']
I've still got the PDF of the management strategy that you linked to. Scanning through it again it's interesting how some o the concerns raised seem to have been ignored
[/quote]
It's worth noting whether the strategy was adopted by Camden as Supplementary Planning Documentation. I know it was by Westminster and the borough boundary runs right down Charing Cross. If Camden have then this should be noted in any submissions. It's also identifying who or what(if a committee) is responsible for decisions over planning applications and making a direct approach. Finally, it's worth bringing the matter to the attention of the media. Although media attention rarely influences planning process, it can influence those elected members who are wary of losing their majority.

Most developers will simply push for whatever they can get, skirt the limits of what is reasonable in planning terms and rely on the planning authority to pull them up on whatever is unacceptable. The ultimate fall back for the developer is to threaten that whatever the local authority wants makes the development economically unfeasible (while at the same time refusing to share their evidence on the grounds of commercial sensitivity). I'd imagine in this situation that a similar tactic to that used for the Astoria might be proposed - a new venue. Although Consolidated don't have the Crossrail Act to help push things through in this case.

EDIT:

The most recent planning assessment for St Giles is here:

[url="http://camden.gov.uk/ccm/navigation/environment/planning-and-built-environment/place-plans/st--giles-holborn/"]http://camden.gov.uk...-giles-holborn/[/url]

P12 is relevant:

"[i]A place to be entertained. The area has a number of restaurants, pubs and clubs and is also close to the Theatreland of the West End and the nightlife of Soho and Covent Garden. This means that large numbers of people pass through the area at night to catch buses and make their journey home. While these businesses contribute
to the bustling nature of the area, add to the range of goods and services on offer and contribute to the local economy, they can also be a source of concern.
... Local people particularly raised concerns about the area around Tottenham Court Road and New Oxford Street, where a number of late opening premises are located in a small area.[/i] "

P16 too:
"[i]Denmark Street Conservation Area is designated for its historic street pattern dating back to the 12th century, the magnificent grade I listed St Giles Church
and the unique survival of early Georgian terraced housing built in the 1680s on both sides of Denmark Street and the network of narrow passageways that give it an intimate character.[/i]"

Looks to me like they have ONLY consulted with the local community and have failed to recognise the wider significance that the area has to London overall.

Problem is that the local authority can often point to consultation as proof they've ground truthed proposals and if the local community don't know how to express their concerns in planning/economic related terms, the local authority has a get out of jail free card.

I'd say there's a strong case to argue that Camden have dropped the ball a bit.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Kiwi
Additional info

[Musky]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1418720656' post='2632558']
It's worth noting whether the strategy was adopted by Camden as Supplementary Planning Documentation. I know it was by Westminster and the borough boundary runs right down Charing Cross. If Camden have then this should be noted in any submissions. It's also identifying who or what(if a committee) is responsible for decisions over planning applications and making a direct approach. Finally, it's worth bringing the matter to the attention of the media. Although media attention rarely influences planning process, it can influence those elected members who are wary of losing their majority.

Most developers will simply push for whatever they can get, skirt the limits of what is reasonable in planning terms and rely on the planning authority to pull them up on whatever is unacceptable. The ultimate fall back for the developer is to threaten that whatever the local authority wants makes the development economically unfeasible (while at the same time refusing to share their evidence on the grounds of commercial sensitivity). I'd imagine in this situation that a similar tactic to that used for the Astoria might be proposed - a new venue. Although Consolidated don't have the Crossrail Act to help push things through in this case.

EDIT:

The most recent planning assessment for St Giles is here:

[url="http://camden.gov.uk/ccm/navigation/environment/planning-and-built-environment/place-plans/st--giles-holborn/"]http://camden.gov.uk...-giles-holborn/[/url]

P12 is relevant:

"[i]A place to be entertained. The area has a number of restaurants, pubs and clubs and is also close to the Theatreland of the West End and the nightlife of Soho and Covent Garden. This means that large numbers of people pass through the area at night to catch buses and make their journey home. While these businesses contribute
to the bustling nature of the area, add to the range of goods and services on offer and contribute to the local economy, they can also be a source of concern.
... Local people particularly raised concerns about the area around Tottenham Court Road and New Oxford Street, where a number of late opening premises are located in a small area.[/i] "

P16 too:
"[i]Denmark Street Conservation Area is designated for its historic street pattern dating back to the 12th century, the magnificent grade I listed St Giles Church
and the unique survival of early Georgian terraced housing built in the 1680s on both sides of Denmark Street and the network of narrow passageways that give it an intimate character.[/i]"

Looks to me like they have ONLY consulted with the local community and have failed to recognise the wider significance that the area has to London overall.

Problem is that the local authority can often point to consultation as proof they've ground truthed proposals and if the local community don't know how to express their concerns in planning/economic related terms, the local authority has a get out of jail free card.

I'd say there's a strong case to argue that Camden have dropped the ball a bit.
[/quote]
Very helpful Kiwi, thank you.

[Lw.]

There were about 30 riot police battering down the door of 12-bar this morning. I don't know if they were actually expecting any problems but it was quite funny to watch them struggle - a handful of them already looked winded from the effort when I got there & they were still no closer to getting through the door when I left 10 minutes later.

[Happy Jack]

Without pictures ...

[toneknob]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/bailiffs-move-in-to-evict-squatters-from-famous-soho-gig-venue-10025462.html

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1423134332' post='2681119']
Without pictures ...
[/quote]

Here you go...