Amp help please

[Rabbie]

Dear basschatting friends, I'm needing a bit of advice. I have used Genz Benz amps for a few years now, more out of laziness to try something new than anything else. I only play DB. Currently I have a shuttle 6.2 with 1 or 2 Genz 12" cabs. I play venues that have a decent front of house so amplification has always just served me for little more than rehearsals and stage volume. In that respect, my rig is far too loud, but especially, it has never really satisfied my wish to reach that "my bass only louder" utopia....
I have used an Acoustic Image in the past and was impressed, just I've always been scared by not having the bottom end (don't know how justified this fear is).
I was toying with the idea of selling my Shuttle 6.2 and one of the 12" cabs and get myself a AI contra, which I could extend with my other 12" can if I needed more oomph...
Admittedly amplification is my weak area of knowledge: I'm hopeless! Can I have some advice please if you can be bothered? Thanks very much....
Oh and if someone wants my rig you can PM me...

[symcbass]

I would check out the Euphonic Audio stuff if you haven't already if you get the chance Roberto.
I've used an Iamp800 for years ( too much for your needs I know) but the representation of true acoustic sound is remarkable. The micros look great if you dont need stoopid loud with variable Hpf too and proper impedance loading. Just another option.

[Rabbie]

Thanks mate, good shout, I have no experience of them... I'll throw them into the thinking mix..

[spencer.b]

I really like acoustic image , like you say you're not gonna get that low end thump . Most of the time I use a PA cab even when I use a pickup , sounds odd but for some louder gigs I use a realist into a sansamp straight into the back of a mackie 450 , for me there's something a bit more even than a bass guitar cab. I like the qsc k10 with a pickup too and it has 2 channels so for a lot of gigs I
use a tiny bit of pick up in 1 channel and mic on a stand on the other , the qsc has a mic/line switch so you don't need a pre which is handy. Do you only use pick up Rabbie?

[Rabbie]

Yeah, I'm too lazy for mics. Obviously I use only mics in the studio but live its plug in and go for me. More food for thought there though Spencer thank you.

[Clarky]

I have an Acoustic Image Ten2 combo. The functionality is superb (massively useful high pass filter, phase control, various room-based EQ settings , eg chorus, as well as bass/mid/treb). I have also owned an EA Micro head which I paired with various cabs. I think both are excellent for picking up the subtlety of a double bass sound. Of course neither suits very high volumes (the speakers are the weak point in my view with Acoustic Image) at which point you need PA support anyway.

Currently I am running the Acoustic Image head (taken out of the combo, its meant to be removable) with a Crazy8 cab (made by Tricky Audio in the UK) for small pub/coffee shop type gigs or an EA Wizzy 12 m-line (4 ohm) for louder gigs.

Not sure if that helps. TBH, I reckon an fdeck preamp (with HPF and phase switch) in front of a relatively uncoloured amp (people seem to be recommending the Tecamp Puma 500) would do the trick

Edit: should add that Ed Friedland ("The Bass Whisperer") uses and likes a Genz 6.0-12T combo so you may not really need to change it anyway! See this at 10 minutes [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx9OigytbNw"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx9OigytbNw[/url]

Edited November 2, 2014 by Clarky

[dudi8]

i just bought the Maruszczyk Barabass combo that has an electric channel and Acoustic channel, i have to say, beside it looks amazing, the sound is superb, especially the acoustic channel, it sounds so natural!
i suggest you to think about it!

[Rabbie]

Cheers Clarky, yes that sound Ed Friedland gets out of the shuttle is exactly what I get. It sounds absolutely great. to everybody in the band or the audience. The curse with us DB players is that we know it sounds nothing like our bass. I suspect once I deal with how much money a change will involve, I'll probably have to stay put...
Thanks for the barabass suggestion: that's another one to throw in the mix. Man so many choices.....

[Clarky]

I think it all depends on volume - if you are playing a low/medium volume gig you CAN sound like 'your bass, only louder' with something like an AI or EA amp (and by the sounds of it the Barabass too). Of course it also depends on your pickup too and the type of room, flooring etc. As soon as it gets any louder than medium, there is an inevitable compromise and it probably doesn't matter much which amp you use

[Rabbie]

In the band we are all long in the tooth and have the quietest drummer known to man (a luxury I thank the heavens for almost daily). Our stage volume is never loud and that is a stipulation we make with the sound guys straight away. Out front it's their job but on stage we like it quiet. On that respect I guess I should aspire for a better sound. Pickup wise nothing fancy but I use the regular standards: Rev solo or full circle.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Maybe you need to investigate cabs rather than amps - Ed Friedland has been extolling the virtues of his Fearless 112 in this vid (which I saw earlier in the amp/cab section of the forum)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-YUbQyK5Ls

Double bass about 5 minutes in

[Rabbie]

Spot on advice with the cab: whats the craic with one of them crazy 8 cabs? I suppose that would give me the flexibility of keeping my current rig in the unlikely event I need to make the drummer's bowels shake...

Edited November 3, 2014 by Rabbie

[alistair Sutcliffe]

I've been using greenboy designed fearful cabs for a few years now and they are superb. His new fearless range is supposed to be even better although i haven't had a chance to try one. There's a UK dealer called Tricky Audio.

[Clarky]

The Crazy8 is a stupidly light (about 12 pounds IIRC) 1x8" cab which Tricky Audio makes under licence from Greenboy (as I understand, like the FearFul range). You carry it with amp and cables in a cajon bag, the whole deal weighing less than 20 pounds, and it works fabulously for small venues (coffee shops, small pubs etc). Obviously any 8" cab will run out of oomph against a loud drummer or noisy band but for my drummer-free Americana group (about 8-10 of us) it works really well. Bassace has used one I believe in a big band so I guess it can go louder than I have pushed it but best ask him.

looks like this
[attachment=175403:crazy8.jpg]

Edited November 3, 2014 by Clarky

[Happy Jack]

Mind you, if you're drifting into that sort of price range you might also want to check out

http://www.soundsliveshop.com/p/Fishman_SoloAmp_SA220_Acoustic_Perfomance_System/FISH-PRO-AMP-SL1?CAWELAID=1830893541&CAGPSPN=pla&gclid=Cj0KEQiA7NyiBRCOhpuCm9Dq6b4BEiQA9D6qhYh7WR4uGe80ds-cxpYS6yG9WkWsJN9FFQDCa4sG3P4aAkx_8P8HAQ

I picked up one of these (relatively) cheap in a closing-down sale and for small acoustic / semi-acoustic gigs it's pretty bloody hard to beat.

Sets up in about three minutes flat, has two channels with independent controls, sounds as good as you'd expect a dedicated Fishman unit to sound, and always attracts attention. A very sexy, professional piece of kit which can either sound great as a DB rig or can be used to amplify an entire small band.

When I'm playing with King Ralph (vocalist, semi-acoustic guitar, double bass, mic'd-up cajon) I usually run the four inputs into a mini-mixer, and then take two outputs from there (vocals + cajon / guitar + bass) into the two inputs of the SA220.

[TheRev]

I had an Acoustic Image Ten2 combo - loved the amp, hated the cab so I sold it on in a part exchange for an Euphonic Audio Doubler. I use the Doubler at home and at small 'session' type gigs where I either use an AI Coda cab (if I'm feeling lazy, cos it's light) or my BigE MAS45 (If I want more oomph). The Doubler/AI combination is definitely a 'my bass only louder' setup, but I'm [u]always[/u] trying to get more bottom end out of the AI cab in a live setting - I really don't like AI cabs at all for live work. If you're determined to get rid of your Genz stuff, then I'd suggest getting either an AI or EA head and trying them through your 12" cab(s). If that still doesn't float our boat, then you could try either the Crazy 8, Crazy 88 (2x8") or a BigE MAS45.

I have a BigE MAS45 and I f*#@ing love this cab. It was designed by the same chap who designed (or was involved in the design of) the Crazy 8 and Crazy 88 cabs and are designed specifically for double bass. They are 'voiced' to an extent and the BigE cabs are definitely designed to be pushed hard, so they may not be as transparent as Acoustic Image cabs but if you're worried about losing bottom end, I wouldn't recommend an Acoustic Image cab (IMO/IME etc.).

Another option, if you're feeling particularly flush, would be the AER Bass Cube. Danny Thompson uses one and I've never heard a bad thing about them. I'd buy one in a flash if I lost compete control of my financial common sense.

[bassace]

Yes, as Clarky says I like my Crazy 8 a lot. I'm starting to use it in places a bit larger than I'd expect it to work properly. I've used it with a nine-piece with no probs. I took it to Blenheim Palace last Sunday - oo-er - and the ace guitarist who I was working with was very complimentary. And we had drums.

You may lose a bit of bottom off some of the smaller cabs but I have generally valued good middle and top articulation. The bottom, a lot of it generated by the acoustics of the instrument, tends to take care of itself by the time it gets to the audience.

[Rabbie]

Thanks guys...don't know what I'm gonna do apart from keeping an interested eye on the classifieds. The Crazy8 sounds like a great option though, whilst keeping my current rig to cover the remote need of stage loudness.
All we can do is make the best possible stage noise and pray for a sound engineer with auditory pavilions connected to the nut...

[philparker]

I use the AER Bass One amp (not the dedicated Cube), which I use for both electric and DB (& Emimence EUB) and whilst you do have to tweak the EQ to get it sounding right the sound is good enough to convince me I don't need to spend additional money on a dedicated DB amp set up. Ed Friedland does a Demo on One, Two & Three amps and states that he doesn't require a pre-amp, which I don't neither, but I've not had to try it for a bigger, louder venue. It is compact, if a little heavy, but is just plug & play...and maybe the odd tweak!

[fatback]

Any strong feelings about why 1X8 should be better than 1X12? I've heard people mention speed of response etc, but can you hear the difference?

I use a Barefaced 1X12, superlight and mega loud, with plenty bottom, but wondering whether I'm missing anything that an 8 could give.

[TheRev]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1415054913' post='2596291']
Any strong feelings about why 1X8 should be better than 1X12? I've heard people mention speed of response etc, but can you hear the difference?

I use a Barefaced 1X12, superlight and mega loud, with plenty bottom, but wondering whether I'm missing anything that an 8 could give.
[/quote]

I can certainly hear the difference between my 1x10 and my 4x5 cabs - the smaller speakers react quicker so notes retain separation and can be heard much more clearly. With my 1x10, anything involving 8th notes on the E string would be sonic mush - not so with the 5" drivers.

If you're happy with your 1x12, then there's no need to change, but I believe that the general consensus is that lots of small drivers are better than one big driver (of equivalent surface area) for responding to the big fundamental you can get with double bass.
At least, that's how I understand it - I expect that someone who actually knows something about bass cabs will be along to correct me...

[marvin spangles]

I agree with Clarky in that it all depends on volume. It's my view that DB is no fun at high volumes . If the volume gets to the point where the DB sound is compromised so much that you'd be better off playing an EB then I think I'd play EB. I really don't see the point in playing gigs where that is the case. That being said I find the Ten 2 cab more than enough for all but the loudest of gigs and it has loads of bottom IMHO . Most situations that require more volume will have FOH reinforcement. Also use the crazy 8 cab with the EA doubler . No problems playing in bands with drummers.

[fatback]

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1415098703' post='2596571']
I can certainly hear the difference between my 1x10 and my 4x5 cabs - the smaller speakers react quicker so notes retain separation and can be heard much more clearly. With my 1x10, anything involving 8th notes on the E string would be sonic mush - not so with the 5" drivers.

If you're happy with your 1x12, then there's no need to change, but I believe that the general consensus is that lots of small drivers are better than one big driver (of equivalent surface area) for responding to the big fundamental you can get with double bass.
At least, that's how I understand it - I expect that someone who actually knows something about bass cabs will be along to correct me...
[/quote]

I'm wondering about the new Barefaced retro 2X10. Might be too coloured for db, but interesting. Heavier than my Midget though.

And so as not to stray too far OT, I can't fault my EA Doubler. Clean and light.

[TheRev]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1415117112' post='2596878']
I'm wondering about the new Barefaced retro 2X10. Might be too coloured for db, but interesting. Heavier than my Midget though.

And so as not to stray too far OT, I can't fault my EA Doubler. Clean and light.
[/quote]

Agreed, the Doubler is an amazing little amp.

A bit of cab colouring isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm not a 'my bass only louder' player and I like a pretty old school, bassy sound, so if a cab gives me that (and I can hear the notes I'm playing) then I'm a happy camper.

[bassace]

[quote name='marvin spangles' timestamp='1415105272' post='2596673']
I agree with Clarky in that it all depends on volume. It's my view that DB is no fun at high volumes . If the volume gets to the point where the DB sound is compromised so much that you'd be better off playing an EB then I think I'd play EB.
[/quote]
The DB sound tends to get compromised as you progress up the volume scale anyway and stays reasonably OK until feedback kicks in. That is if you're not using FOH. At the recent Double Bass Bash Stingray Pete brought his DB fitted with a magnetic pickup which impressed many of us who attended. While a mag is not completely bombproof it can go up to very high vols before feedback. And Pete's sound was quite acceptable.

Just to pick up on the Rev's love for the MA45, I find that cab to have a high resistance to feedback and it's not a boomer. Interesting that that and the Crazy 8 came from the same US source and follow a different theory that I'm not totally au fait with. But they work.

Edited November 4, 2014 by bassace