Linking mixing desks using the I/O insert

[P-T-P]

Not really bass related I know, but I figure someone here will likely be able to answer the question for me.

Currently my band uses a powered mixer for FOH (everything apart from kit) and we send the signals from the 5 mics to a Shure Auxpander (a rack 8x8 matrix mixer) using the inserts and the bass and guitar signals to the Auxpander from the mixers two monitor out AUX sends.

The inserts use standard 1/4" TRS stereo jacks while the monitor sends are 1/4" mono jacks with the jack plug half inserted on the Auxpander insert.

The Auxpander then routes the mic signals through compressor/gate/enhancer and multi-fx unit before sending back to the main mix desk and it also creates 4 individual mixes for out in-ear monitors.

As a result of an insurance claim (and the annoying delay in processing the claim) we now have two mixing desks. As these are identical and both have on-board effects and as one of these is substantially smaller and lighter than the 12 unit rack which houses the Auxpander, gate, compressor etc. we'd like to just run the two mixers side by side.

This would give us a more streamlined set-up, give us redundancy should FOH unit pack up, give us opportunity to run wedges/side fills (both are powered mixers) as guitarist is hating IEM set-up.

What I don't know is can I hook the two up using the Insert points and preferrably using just cables or am I going to need to split the signal somehow?

The I/O is wired
Tip -> Signal Output
Ring -> Signal Return

If it can't be done simply by hooking the two mixers together, what will I need to get it to work, ideally in a single unit rack space?!

[Steve_K]

I don't quite see why you want to join the channels together, but you could do it with a patch bay and insert cables (TRS to L/R mono) -

L (Tip)------ Patch Channel 1 socket 1 -
TRS ------- }---------- Patch Channel 1 output 1
R (Ring) --- Patch Channel 1 socket 2 -

So you're sort of splitting it, but with a patch bay rather than lots of unsightly and much less reliable splitters.

[b]Edit[/b] Blegh formatting... um

[code] L (Tip)------ Patch Channel 1 socket 1 -
TRS ------- }---------- Patch Channel 1 output 1
R (Ring) --- Patch Channel 1 socket 2 -[/code]

Edited July 15, 2007 by Steve_K

[Tengu]

You are over-complicating the situation by thinking about inserts.

When you are chaining two mixers all you need to do is route the left and right main output from mixer-a into a stereo channel on mixer-b. To send all the inputs to your monitors you will need to wire the aux sends from mixer-a into spare channels on mixer-b and turn up the aux send pot full for those channels while keeping the main slider at zero.

You then send the left/right main mix of mixer-b to your power amp and the aux sends of mixer-b to your effects or monitors.

Give me a shout if you want me to clarify that.

[P-T-P]

Thanks for the replies.

I think perhaps I didn't explain what I'm hoping to achieve properly, namely four wholly unique and independent monitor mixes so that each band member can have a personal mix sent to their IEMs or wedge.

A patchbay will do the trick, I was hoping there was perhaps some way of just linking the two (sadly there's no direct outs for each channel on these particular mixers).

As it turns out though, the replacement mixers have a minor but important change to the one we used to use. The two aux sends which are dedicated to the onboard FX now have an output jack. I need three IEM mixes and one wedge and I can now achieve it all from one mixer so long as I only use one of the two onboard FX banks.

Each channel has 4 aux controls, labelled...

Mon 1
Mon 2
FX1
FX2

Mon 1 and Mon 2 are pre-fader.
FX1 and FX2 are post-fader.

Mon 1 and 2 send a signal (via fader for each) to Mon 1 jack output and Mon 2 jack output.
FX1 and FX2 send signal to on-board FX1 and FX2 banks respectively as well as (via fader for each) to a single TRS jack output (FX1 at tip, FX2 at ring).

Each FX bank has three rotary controls: FX1 to main; FX1 to Mon1; FX1 to Mon 2 (similar for FX2).

I used the Mon 1, Mon 2 and FX2 controls to create three mixes for IEMs (turned off FX2 bank) while FX1 only has vocals being sent to FX1 bank and that is all that needs get sent to wedge monitor so cool beans.

It's not 100% foolproof, and never will be unless we get a mixer with sufficient AUX sends on-board, but it worked well enough and will make a nice dent in the amount of gear we are going to have to cart about.

If anyone can spot a flaw in my plan, please say so!

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='P-T-P' post='32431' date='Jul 16 2007, 11:36 AM']and never will be unless we get a mixer with sufficient AUX sends on-board,[/quote]

tell me about it...

For this reason I use Two 16 X 4 X 2 mixers, and send one into the other. I also prefer recording mixers as opposed to 'live' mixers - the recording types have direct outs which are immensely useful, the 'live' ones don't. The first one pretty much does drum submixing, and various bits. Also easier to lug about than one beast of a mixer, and we have twice onboard efx.

For our IEM system, I have 2 AKAI MB76 programmable matrix mixers (7 in, 6 out). You won't find them anymore, but you can find similar matrix mixers around. I also use a Re-an patchbay, which makes things a bit easier. Also, I have started to use the patchbay as a signal splitter....works a treat. As a result we run out IEMS in stereo and find that both I and our drummer play much tighter. Much cheaper than the Aviom... but I would like an Aviom system someday.

Edited July 19, 2007 by synaesthesia

[P-T-P]

We have a Shure matrix mixer, which works well, but it's a pain in the ass having to carry that and all the crap that goes with it.

You're right about the lack of direct outs on "live" mixers. One of those things where had we known enough when starting to build the PA....

Yamaha do a pair of live mixers with on board FX that have 4 Aux sends plus 2 for the onboard FX. Can just about get by now using the change described in my earlier post,

[synaesthesia]

Some of the direct outs feed directly into the matrix submixing which basically mixes for IEM. We can run a stage ambience and or audience mic via the direct out and effectively have audience+ambience + a parallel set of musical signals to FOH.

[P-T-P]

What mics are you using for the audience/ambience and where are you placing them?

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='P-T-P' post='34713' date='Jul 20 2007, 03:06 PM']What mics are you using for the audience/ambience and where are you placing them?[/quote]


Standard dynamics, a SM57 or something similar. I usually have some spare dynamics around and they are all you need. I clip the mic to the inclined drum sub mixer rack. If I have a spare stand I use it. You can hear then hear someone in the band cue "Bass solo!"

[DrGonzo]

If you want to cut down the amount of gear you need at the side of stage [i]and[/i] provide a decent alternative to the FOH board while removing the hassle of set-up you should try a little digital mixer if budget can cope - you might be able to get a Yamaha 01V96 reasonably cheap, or there's the old Behringer digital desk, can't remember the name now. DDX16/32 or summat... That way you get all your processing built in, all your monitor / IEM settings saved and ready to go and a cracking last-resort live board.