Why do we bother??!

[DaytonaRik]

I do it because there's no other feeling like it, or being told "that was great...where are you next week 'cos we'd love to come and see you again!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416228003' post='2608063']
I don't think the 'I enjoy it so why should I be paid?' theory works. I enjoy my day job, maybe I should just do that for free too?
[/quote]

That's not really my position. I wouldn't refuse payment if someone insisted, but it's simply not an issue for us either way. Funnily enough, we just turned down a reasonably prestigious paid gig (Selwyn Snowball, Cambridge uni) because one of the band couldn't move a family commitment. If the money was important or raising our profile was important or breaking into the Cambridge area was important to us then I guess we could have looked for a dep, but they're not so we pulled out. Mildly disappointing for me and the others who could make it, but no tantrums or threatening to leave because of lack of commitment, or sacking the person concerned. Besides, we'll be playing at a couple of private parties over the Christmas period anyway, so that'll keep us all happy.

I don't think the 'day job' argument works either . . . unless you enjoy your job so much that you would still do it even if you didn't need the money. I enjoyed my job when I was working, but I was more than happy to retire as soon as I could afford to. I can't imagine me ever giving up playing music though. It simply isn't about the money.

[TimR]

But if you'd agreed to do Cambridge and the band member had dropped out what happens then?

If it's a pub gig paying £30 each where's the money and incentive to find a dep?

Often the money we get paid is compensating us for keeping these dates free and not jumping off when 'something better comes along'.

For the wedding season in summer you're being compensated for agreeing not to go on holiday for those dates in the summer in advance.

Family parties etc.

For a pub gig you drop out and no one is really that bothered.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416228003' post='2608063']
Regards hobbies...
[/quote]

Doesn't stack up; somewhat incoherent.
Our buddy Pete holds a garden party every year. He invites whomsoever he wants to come and play there. All is purely by invitation, and all have a great time. We've been asked twice; Pete sometimes pops in to our rehearsals, bringing a bottle or two, or even tea..!
'Ciralstock' is a private festival held annually in a remote location not too far from us. We've been invited 3 times, now; all have a great time. No money changes hands, the PA, marquee, lights etc are all supplied by the tiny association of buddies (all professionals in their own field...) that enjoy putting it on.
Our ex-2nd guitar is part of association putting on their village fête each year. We've been called up twice to play there, reception is excellent, a good time is had by all. Yes, there are stalls and eats being sold all around the village, the PA and stage are professionals (and very good, too...), as are some of the other acts and street artists.
Our own local festival, 'Les 3 Elephants' (now moved further afield to Laval...) had, most years, an 'open-mic' marquee, where up-and-coming bands could have an opportunity to play before several thousand visitors. The whole festival was run by 300 volunteers and teams of professional security, marquees, events personnel over a 3-week set-up/tear-down period in summer. Most bands are paid, some are volunteers. Everyone wins. No jealousy, no back-biting, no big deal, no grief. Is it all so wrong..? You're living in your Universe. Respect. There are other Universes. Some of them are worthy of respect, too.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Dad3353

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416229100' post='2608083']
I have to say that I am very sceptical about free bands being any good.
I can get my head around the odd gig and being worthwhile to do for free
but the carrot needs to be pretty appealing.. I guess this is relative ..?
[/quote]

Well, we could discuss 'good' until the cows come home, but I take your basic point.

TBH, I don't think we're particularly good, certainly not as good as I'd like us to be, though I do think some of our originals are pretty good even if we don't do them full justice IMO. I know I rarely play a set without making some mistakes, though I'm getting better at covering them up

But, we have a decent following of friends and acquaintances who turn out to see us when we play and their feedback is always positive. I don't really understand why they seem to consider us better than I think we are, but they do - as evidenced by all the invitations we get to play at parties and functions and the like ( I say 'all', but we're hardly inundated though they do account for around half of our dozen or so gigs each year). We've even done two weddings by invitation for goodness sake, which I was really nervous about because I didn't think we'd be good enough, but the happy couple were delighted - so someone must like what we do, even if we think we could be better.

So yes, I guess 'good' is all relative and there is a wide spectrum, but I seriously doubt that 'good' can be measured by something as crude as money. Is the band taking £50 quid each really so much better than the band playing for free or are they themselves 'no good' because they can't make £100 each and are stuck playing dingy pubs instead of more prestigious corporate gigs, or arenas, or stadiums?

[TimR]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1416231610' post='2608101']


Doesn't stack up;

...
[/quote]

And you do that every Saturday night?

I'm comparing Fly standing in a river on a Sunday morning holding his fishing rod, with Fly standing in a pub on a Saturday night holding his bass.

If he doesn't catch any fish on Sunday, hell still be back the next week.
If the punters start leaving the pub on Saturday, he won't be asked back

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416231552' post='2608100']
But if you'd agreed to do Cambridge and the band member had dropped out what happens then?

If it's a pub gig paying £30 each where's the money and incentive to find a dep?

Often the money we get paid is compensating us for keeping these dates free and not jumping off when 'something better comes along'.

For the wedding season in summer you're being compensated for agreeing not to go on holiday for those dates in the summer in advance.

Family parties etc.

For a pub gig you drop out and no one is really that bothered.
[/quote]


Blimey - I'm beginning to think that maybe I'm not such a cynical old git as I thought.

We've would never cancel an agreed gig. 'Our word is our bond' and all that - no need for contracts, deposits etc. This is easy for us because money is not an issue. We [u]turned down[/u] the Cambridge gig because we couldn't be sure we could all do it before their deadline - we didn't think about the earning potential and immediately say yes and then try to sort out a dep at a later date. Similarly, if someone asks us for something next summer, we would not be able to agree if someone had a holiday booked. But if there was no clash and we agreed then that commitment would have to be worked around when booking holidays. I can see the theoretical potential for problems, but it hasn't happened so far.

Also, by only doing about one gig per month on average, it's far less likely we get clashes of better offers than if we were gigging a few times each week . . . . which would be far too much like hard work for us!!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416232528' post='2608108']
And you do that every Saturday night?

I'm comparing Fly standing in a river on a Sunday morning holding his fishing rod, with Fly standing in a pub on a Saturday night holding his bass.

If he doesn't catch any fish on Sunday, hell still be back the next week.
If the punters start leaving the pub on Saturday, he won't be asked back
[/quote]

There's something strange about the English language which makes it difficult to understand, sometimes. What difference does it make whether we play (for free...) every Saturday (which we don't, by choice...) or twice a year (as this year; I'm not on top of my form, so we reduced our outings...). A few years ago I was out nearly every w/e doing the lights for a local ska/rock/punk band, all over France. It took my mind off work, helped out the band, and all had a good time. I became the 'expert' on Sunlite and fixtures; I still help out a buddy with a PA hire firm when he is over-booked for himself and his staff. Do I get paid for that..? No, and I don't want to be.
As for FF, if his band are playing well on the Saturday evening and the room was packed, why shouldn't they be asked back..? Doing it for a hobby simply does not equate every time to not being good, sometimes better than some 'professionals', and if the LL and the attendees like what they play, what's the beef..? What makes you imagine that they're not able to animate a night's entertainment, just like any other band..? Seems strange to me. As I said, it would appear to be a different set of experiences. I've seen many an amateur artist or band play and entertain very well indeed. I've seen some pretty awful 'pro' acts, too, some of which were not cheap.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1416231610' post='2608101']
Our buddy Pete holds a garden party every year. He invites whomsoever he wants to come and play there. All is purely by invitation, and all have a great time. We've been asked twice; Pete sometimes pops in to our rehearsals, bringing a bottle or two, or even tea..!
'Ciralstock' is a private festival held annually in a remote location not too far from us. We've been invited 3 times, now; all have a great time. No money changes hands, the PA, marquee, lights etc are all supplied by the tiny association of buddies (all professionals in their own field...) that enjoy putting it on.
Our ex-2nd guitar is part of association putting on their village fête each year. We've been called up twice to play there, reception is excellent, a good time is had by all. Yes, there are stalls and eats being sold all around the village, the PA and stage are professionals (and very good, too...), as are some of the other acts and street artists.
Our own local festival, 'Les 3 Elephants' (now moved further afield to Laval...) had, most years, an 'open-mic' marquee, where up-and-coming bands could have an opportunity to play before several thousand visitors. The whole festival was run by 300 volunteers and teams of professional security, marquees, events personnel over a 3-week set-up/tear-down period in summer. Most bands are paid, some are volunteers. Everyone wins. No jealousy, no back-biting, no big deal, no grief. Is it all so wrong..? You're living in your Universe. Respect. There are other Universes. Some of them are worthy of respect, too.
[/quote]

That sounds very similar to our experience. Our first 'international' gig (Wales :lol) was a private 'festival' held annually and we got an invite via our guitarist who had attended as a non-playing guest the previous year. He got talking about our band, as you do, and the organisers invited us to play the following year. We travelled down on the Friday and they put us up in their farmhouse, though we would be camping there for the rest of the weekend. On Saturday, we 'mucked in' and helped the band of organisers who arrived to set up the stage, the PA, the lighting, etc, while others sorted out barbecues and other facilities.

There were four bands (including both of mine) on the bill and we started at about 7pm and played until about 1pm, followed by a few more hours of acoustic singalong in the large farmhouse kitchen. We must have done something right as we were invited for the following year, though only one of the bands I play with could make it that year. We have a standing invitation to play there again whenever we like.

Economically, it was a disaster - 400 mile round trip to Wales, no fee, whole weekend 'lost', blah, blah, blah. Socially, it was a blast. Great event, great company, playing to a couple of hundred people, meeting new friends and generally having a fun time. What value should I put on all that?

Dad is dead right . . . There are other universes

[TimR]

The thread is about becoming disillusioned with pub gigs for low money.

All these other examples are all very nice but don't adress the op.

Sure we play exceptional gigs for free and we play other gigs for lots of money.

But why do we play to three people in a bar for £30?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416234506' post='2608125']...Our first 'international' gig ...[/quote]

[size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size]

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416234725' post='2608128']
The thread is about becoming disillusioned with pub gigs for low money.

All these other examples are all very nice but don't adress the op.

Sure we play exceptional gigs for free and we play other gigs for lots of money.

But why do we play to three people in a bar for £30?
[/quote]

The thread has teased out the fact that different people play for all sorts of different reasons. No real surprise there.

I don't see any problem with playing to three people in a bar for £30, or nothing, or £300, if that's what someone wants to do.

What surprises me is that people play a gig for their chosen terms and then moan about it. Or, in the case of the OP, assumed terms.

And moaning about pubs not paying 'enough' seems about as useful as moaning about the price of petrol. It is what it is - take it or leave it.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416216132' post='2607899']

I have always believed that relaxing the laws of music license was not going to do the musicians any good at all.
It allowed too many pubs to put on music as a punt or afterthought and devalued the whole thing..IMO.
It also allows too many bands out to compete. Sometimes in my town, there are 8-9 gigs on a saturday night so you can't tell me that
pubs don't know the value to them... I wont play a lot of those places ...as I like to stay with my original venue picks and be fair to them
and I think 2 gigs per town is enough, and also, those other pubs will cherry pick the nights so they are ad-hoc gigs, IMO.
The other thing is that supermarket beer prices are kiiling the pub trade ...so I would price out drinking cheap at home.
[/quote]

Well, I suppose that sort of dictatorship approach is one solution

[Earbrass]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416235996' post='2608144']
The thread has teased out the fact that different people play for all sorts of different reasons. No real surprise there.

I don't see any problem with playing to three people in a bar for £30, or nothing, or £300, if that's what someone wants to do.

What surprises me is that people play a gig for their chosen terms and then moan about it. Or, in the case of the OP, assumed terms.

And moaning about pubs not paying 'enough' seems about as useful as moaning about the price of petrol. It is what it is - take it or leave it.
[/quote]

+1. Wonder why you bother? OK, don't bother. You won't be missed and your place will be instantly filled by another band keen to play the gig. (Not aimed at the OP in particular).

[TimR]

But it's also about 'why' pubs pay so low.

[rogerstodge]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1416180931' post='2607781']


Is he as amenable to the idea of selling his beer at 1985 prices as well..?
[/quote]+1

[brensabre79]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416236261' post='2608153']
But it's also about 'why' pubs pay so low.
[/quote]
I don't think that's what the OP was about, but since you ask...

It's because there is next to no money around. The smoking ban pretty much closed a lot of pub culture and turned the others into foodie pubs - something that has taken off in a big way since. But many of these so called Gastropubs aren't the sort of places that will have bands on.

The sort of pubs that still ave bands fall into two camps, the privately owned ones and those that are 'managed' on behalf of the brewery (the owners). Many breweries give those managers an entertainment budget with which to pay for bands etc. and it isn't all that much.

A pub near us have had numerous requests from their regulars to book our covers band, having seen us at other establishments nearby. Unfortunately the entertainment budget allocated by the brewery means that at our minimum fee we'd see off a months worth of entertainment budget in one night. Those of you paying attention will be able to do the maths, but that basically means the landlord can have a band a week if he pays them no more than £75 each. He can't sub that out of the takings because it's not his money.

The privately owned ones have more flexibility, but to have a £300 band on, they have to take more than that in EXTRA profit on the night (compared to just switching on the jukebox) to justify it. And the profit on a pint of beer just isn't that much. Some places take a loss on the night because they love the music - but those are the ones who are gonna be picky about who they book and they'll probably keep it to once a month so they can also eat.

There's a place near us that have a huge reputation in the area for live music, 4-5 nights a week. They cannot possibly pay more than £150, but they do pass a jug around for the band - which on a good night can take it up to £200 or more. It's not worth it for us, and we don't really do many pubs these days full stop, but many do play there quite happily.

[TimR]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1416245197' post='2608261']
...

He can't sub that out of the takings because it's not his money.

...
[/quote]

A very strong point.

Although I think there are more and more pubs being run as part tied pub.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1416180931' post='2607781']
Is he as amenable to the idea of selling his beer at 1985 prices as well..?
[/quote]

That's the job of the supermarkets isn't it

[flyfisher]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1416245197' post='2608261']
The smoking ban pretty much closed a lot of pub culture and turned the others into foodie pubs - something that has taken off in a big way since.
[/quote]

Well I hardly ever went into a pub before the smoking ban. I wasn't gigging in those days but would have prevented me from doing so, so the smoking ban is no loss to me. I can't believe I'm unique in that regards.


[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1416245197' post='2608261']
A pub near us have had numerous requests from their regulars to book our covers band, having seen us at other establishments nearby. Unfortunately the entertainment budget allocated by the brewery means that at our minimum fee we'd see off a months worth of entertainment budget in one night.
[/quote]

Numerous requests as long as someone else foots the bill? Not prepared to pay for the band themselves?

If a band playing for free is deemed to be no good, what about a band that no one is willing to pay to hear?

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416248225' post='2608317']


Well I hardly ever went into a pub before the smoking ban. I wasn't gigging in those days but would have prevented me from doing so, so the smoking ban is no loss to me. I can't believe I'm unique in that regards.




Numerous requests as long as someone else foots the bill? Not prepared to pay for the band themselves?

If a band playing for free is deemed to be no good, what about a band that no one is willing to pay to hear?
[/quote]

Yes. I'm not sure how much longer the smoking ban can be blamed. It's been over 7 years now. From my point of view the pubs seem to have enough entertainment budget to spend several hundred pounds a month on Sky. I walk past any pub with Sky banners on it. IMO That's what's ripping the soul out of the pubs.

The bands I've seen doing the best are playing to young audiences (non smokers?) and playing music from the last 20years. These bands are packing the big O'Neils pubs regularly and getting paid pretty well for doing it.

Bands will continue to be paid badly while there are middle aged blokes willing to subsidise their dream of being a rock star at the weekend.

To get paid more you need to up your game and do something different.

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416232335' post='2608105']
Well, we could discuss 'good' until the cows come home, but I take your basic point.
....................

So yes, I guess 'good' is all relative and there is a wide spectrum, but I seriously doubt that 'good' can be measured by something as crude as money. Is the band taking £50 quid each really so much better than the band playing for free or are they themselves 'no good' because they can't make £100 each and are stuck playing dingy pubs instead of more prestigious corporate gigs, or arenas, or stadiums?
[/quote]

Never an easy answer.... The easy money around here is tribute bands who can get far better gigs thru their role play than
a comparable cover band. We've played with a few and no matter how we felt the gig went, we couldn't get flown to Afganistan
and looked after the way they would be. By contrast they wouldn't get top billing in our enviroment, but them's the breaks.
I respect pulling power as an entity, myself, so any band that can sell enough tickets or draw very well gets that from me,
but I don't always concede that is a definition of good. By the same token, we might be able to afford a top notch player
and they may agree to take our gig.. Why..? maybe they just need the money and will just suck it up.
But when you have had a few of these players pass by, you get to know what is what if only because you may have realised that you are seriously outclassed or you consider their CV and think you handled it all well enough.
The thing is, you probably don't know how good someone is until you have played with them and sometimes the best endorsement is
just to be asked... Second from that is to call them and they agree to play with you. Not too many with very good CV's will take the money first and ask questions later, IME. They need to know that you aren't a total waste of time.
If you have their number, you will likely have been given it by someone they know..that puts you in the same swim, ballpark as an entity they recognise, so they will probably at least hear out your gig. If they fancy it, and they are free they'll do it..possibly for £50...so you have done well to sell it to them,
but if they don't fancy it, you can't buy them at any gig money you can afford.

So, yes..what is 'good'..?? I think the level is that people you rate will actually play with you...but as for where is that actual line..??? who knows, it is relative.

Edited November 17, 2014 by JTUK

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416249366' post='2608324']
Yes. I'm not sure how much longer the smoking ban can be blamed. It's been over 7 years now. From my point of view the pubs seem to have enough entertainment budget to spend several hundred pounds a month on Sky. I walk past any pub with Sky banners on it. IMO That's what's ripping the soul out of the pubs.
[/quote]

Good point about Sky. A lot of my footy-loving friends head down to the pub to watch the big matches. It sort of takes over the place so would always drive me out, but no more I guess than a band would drive out anyone out for a quiet drink and a natter. I suppose the landlord doesn't care what brings people in to buy beer. I seem to remember strippers were quite in vogue in some city pubs in the 80s.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416249366' post='2608324']

The bands I've seen doing the best are playing to young audiences (non smokers?) and playing music from the last 20years. These bands are packing the big O'Neils pubs regularly and getting paid pretty well for doing it.

Bands will continue to be paid badly while there are middle aged blokes willing to subsidise their dream of being a rock star at the weekend.

To get paid more you need to up your game and do something different.
[/quote]

Can't see the logic there. Youngish bands playing newish songs to youngish audiences, fine. Middle aged blokes playing 70s blues rock to older audiences, fine. Both playing to their own segments. What are the middle aged rock star wannabes supposed to do to 'up their game'. One Direction covers? I thought that was the function band domain

There is no single formula.

As for dreams of being a rock star, I kicked that into touch before leaving school when I realised it was never going to happen and got myself a proper job instead. Now I can afford to buy decent gear and play purely for fun without all the crap that clearly goes on when trying to scrap by on crap gig earnings.

Horses for courses.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416253317' post='2608381']


Can't see the logic there. Youngish bands playing newish songs to youngish audiences, fine. Middle aged blokes playing 70s blues rock to older audiences, fine. Both playing to their own segments. What are the middle aged rock star wannabes supposed to do to 'up their game'. One Direction covers? I thought that was the function band domain

There is no single formula.

As for dreams of being a rock star, I kicked that into touch before leaving school when I realised it was never going to happen and got myself a proper job instead. Now I can afford to buy decent gear and play purely for fun without all the crap that clearly goes on when trying to scrap by on crap gig earnings.

Horses for courses.
[/quote]

No. These are middle age guys. Good players who've looked at the market and know what people want to hear.

If you go into a music pub and count the heads and there are twenty to thirty people wanting to hear 70s music then that's a big audience.

Go into an O'Neils pub and you're looking at 200-300 people of all ages up to maybe mid 40s.

Play some oasis, blur, Robbie Williams, I'm not talking last 5 years, I'm talking 20years. You'll bring the house down.

If you want to be popular and get paid well you have to play what people want to hear, not what you want to play.

Edited November 17, 2014 by TimR