Why do we bother??!

[sharkboy]

Interesting debate so far. I take the point about doing it for the love of music but, ya know, sometimes it's nice to get some money doing what you love!

From my perspective as someone with around 30 years in cover bands, it's been a long, mostly fun trip to get to the point where we were making decent money. Our first regular gigs were in a town about 40 miles outside of Belfast for the grand total of £70 (back then, we were a 6-piece, since slimmed down a bit to 5), so it paid for a couple of pints and a KFC on the way home. At the peak of Britpop, suddenly every bar wanted live bands and as we were "britpop friendly" in our set, we were gigging 3-4 times a week, every week. Over the course of 2 years I found myself making twice as much with the band as I did in my day job.

However, I'm glad I kept the day job as this changed pretty quickly and a lot of bars realised that instead of paying £4-500 for a band, you could chuck some guy £50 to bring his box of records along. Suddenly the choice of gigs disappeared, bars that were once our bread and butter were DJ-only and the money started to dry up. We still had some good regular spots but, and this is the important part for this debate, we never dropped our fee. We knew we were worth it, we had a track record to stand over that and by god we weren't going to compromise. Nowadays, we're still playing and still charging and finally there seems to be a bit of an upswing in live venues again. We're getting interest from venues and towns we'd never played before and we've even started to do an "introductory offer" for anyone who baulks at the fee initially, where we'll do the first couple for a reduced fee on the grounds that if we pull the punters and the bar likes us, we'll renegotiate. Hey, art it may be, but its also an industry so why not use industry tactics?

One last thought about the wedding/corporate side - I've never been a fan of these events. We don't do a particularly wedding/corporate-friendly set (mostly classic/indie rock), and when we do do weddings, its on the understanding that they get the same type of material (we do let them pick the set from our list of covers - we're not monsters! - and will try to learn the first song if it's appropriate). If they want the typical wedding songs they can hire a DJ to play them. This seems to work well. Maybe it's the old rebel in me, but corporate events just seem like a sell-out too far

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='sharkboy' timestamp='1416253836' post='2608387']
Maybe it's the old rebel in me, but corporate events just seem like a sell-out too far
[/quote]

Having been on both ends of the 'corporate event gig' I'd have to say it depends on the corporate event. Christmas parties for small to medium sized companies can be a total hoot. For one thing, most of the punters are decidedly up for it and they aren't paying for the alcohol.

Even at so-called 'industry awards nights', the dance floor can end up looking like something out of 'Caligula' with punters stage-diving onto tables while others are bumping uglies upstairs in the gallery. Frankly, some of the best audiences I've played to have been substance-crazed worker drones off the leash with the spouse safely parked back home.

OK, some events are a bit dinner / dance with plump matrons in posh frocks and the paternal boss earwigging convos. But the [i]other[/i] kind of corporate gig puts the average club gig well in the shade. The pay's good, too.

[flyfisher]

What does "selling out" really mean though?

I could argue that a musician who will only play for money is the one 'selling out'. It's the ones who play for free, for the love of it, who are being true to themselves - especially if they are playing originals. Everyone else is selling out and gets grumpy if they don't get paid enough, but that's alright because that's the way the music business works isn't it? Show me any 'rock stars' who haven't sold themselves to get where they are. Sure, they can get all arsey and difficult when they are big enough but they've already sold their souls by then.

I say "I could argue" because frankly I don't really care about any of it. I'm not aiming for rock stardom and had figured that out a while ago now. I just want to play a few original songs to a live audience who don't walk out and sometimes even tap their feet or get up and dance. Just for my own gratification. So far, so good.

[72deluxe]

I played free gigs for a number of years and did enjoy playing, but the realisation of how much my time is worth has stopped me doing freebies. Practicing for days with bands and driving all over the countryside and getting home after the dead of night whilst lugging heavy gear around comes at a price (usually my back).

If you asked any other person to come and entertain you for a few hours for nothing or to do something like housework or carpentry for a couple of hours without pay (even if your provided the materials), they wouldn't do it. I know I'm not planning on getting rich with this but my life is not free! Learning to play takes an investment in time and effort.

If you work out how much time you dedicate to packing up your car, driving, setting up, playing, dismantling, loading up the car, driving, and unloading and then divide this by the pay, you work out that the pay per hour can be pretty rubbish! This gets worse if you factor in time practicing and hiring practice rooms if necessary.

Of course, I do really love playing, even if some of the cover songs get a bit tedious after a while. And money isn't the be-all-and-end-all of life, but my time is worth something. This reminds me - I must tell my bandmates we should charge more!

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416256359' post='2608424']
What does "selling out" really mean though?

...
[/quote]

I think the comment was a "sell out too far".

I've seen those plastic bands. I saw a 'rock band' in a club at Butlins. Playing GNR, Nirvana, etc. Something was just wrong with the picture I was looking at.

Then it twigged.

The music was perfect. It was being played by trained musicians. And none of them had tattoos either. Just felt wrong to me.

The crowd loved it.

The next night they were in the ballroom wearing suits backing some singer from the 70s.

Classic.

.

Edited November 17, 2014 by TimR

[flyfisher]

That's what truly professional musician do though, isn't it? They sell their skills. I really can't see any line that is crossed and it suddenly becomes a 'sell out too far'

I suppose there might be some bricklayers who refuse to work on anything other than neo-gothic revival architecture, but in the main they just lay bricks in accordance to the drawings for whoever is paying them. Pro musicians are the same aren't they? Especially the ones who read music and are paid to play the exact notes put in front of them.

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416256359' post='2608424']
.................
I say "I could argue" because frankly I don't really care about any of it. I'm not aiming for rock stardom and had figured that out a while ago now. I just want to play a few original songs to a live audience who don't walk out and sometimes even tap their feet or get up and dance. Just for my own gratification. So far, so good.
[/quote]

I'm not aiming at rock stardom either...by the time I got good enough...or thought I could do it, I was past it..
Having said that... sometimes you just need to go for it if you think it fits, but scratching around trying to earn £20K plus, having to take each and every gig would see me off in no time. But...... that doesn't mean I just play at it. I try to make it as good as I can as that way
I enjoy it more. This drives me on and the constant search can be tiring but have I sold out... I don't think so, and neither have I settled.
The day I do that, I'll give up playing. It isn't so much a crusade, it is just the willingness to push on and still work on things.
I quit for a few years and it wasn't until I came back refreshed that I realised how much I'd been coasting and just going thru the motions.
I am a much better player now and I also know what has to work for me to remain interested.
I've put the time in, I'll be paid because I know I'll a good job. If someone wont pay that, then thats their choice, I'm not desperate enough to put the price down so in that sense, I haven't sold out either.
Finally, I'll do originals when the songs are good enough to go in the set. I think we would have at least 5 for the summer and our price goes up in the new year.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416259170' post='2608470']
That's what truly professional musician do though, isn't it? They sell their skills. I really can't see any line that is crossed and it suddenly becomes a 'sell out too far'

I suppose there might be some bricklayers who refuse to work on anything other than neo-gothic revival architecture, but in the main they just lay bricks in accordance to the drawings for whoever is paying them. Pro musicians are the same aren't they? Especially the ones who read music and are paid to play the exact notes put in front of them.
[/quote]

You have lost complete control over what you play.

If you join the Royal Philharmonic, you turn up in the morning and are given the day's music. That's what you're going to be playing. No choice. As you say. That's what you're paid to do.

This is where the balance comes in. That's where the totally sold out part is.

Play in a covers band for less than professional wages but get some 'creative' input. Even if it's just a say in what goes in the setlist. Maybe even a sneaky run or gliss.

.

Edited November 17, 2014 by TimR

[sharkboy]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1416256169' post='2608422']
Having been on both ends of the 'corporate event gig' I'd have to say it depends on the corporate event. Christmas parties for small to medium sized companies can be a total hoot. For one thing, most of the punters are decidedly up for it and they aren't paying for the alcohol.

Even at so-called 'industry awards nights', the dance floor can end up looking like something out of 'Caligula' with punters stage-diving onto tables while others are bumping uglies upstairs in the gallery. Frankly, some of the best audiences I've played to have been substance-crazed worker drones off the leash with the spouse safely parked back home.

OK, some events are a bit dinner / dance with plump matrons in posh frocks and the paternal boss earwigging convos. But the [i]other[/i] kind of corporate gig puts the average club gig well in the shade. The pay's good, too.
[/quote]

Good point, well made I guess it was the latter type of event that I was thinking about - I'm always up for playing "Caligula" style events!

[Damonjames]

I seem to have opened up a can of worms here! So after a little more sleep and a chance to calm down a little, my original post was somewhat rhetorical, I know why we bother. We do it because we love doing what we do. The aforementioned gig was played to a handful of punters, in a small pub, with 5 if us tucked in and not much room to move. At the end of the night we ended up 25% short on where we thought we would be on payment. Again, our fault we should have checked. At least the pub have us a few free beers, afterwards the drummer said his spider senses where tingling after the second and subsequent offers of beef that the payment would be in question!!
I am in agreement with almost everything that this has thrown up in this thread, I was just expressing my frustration. As a band we work really hard to make sure we put on a good performance, have quality gear, a good PA, and some lighting (which will be improved). None of us have taken payment from the gigs for the last 3 months to invest in equipment for the band. To get £30 a piece to travel 100 miles there and back to play to a handful of punters, just has you question your motives. Especially when you factor in the "cost" of time away from the family, and trying
To keep up with two kids the day after without being a grumpy ass. Again, all my choice.
I honestly feel like there is something wrong with the scenario if after a doing a gig, you can't even afford to buy a set of strings....
I know there will be good and bad gigs, it's just the nature of things. This was an average one and we got paid accordingly. It has sparked conversation in the band about what we can do differently to market ourselves better to ensure that we get more punters through the door, in turn this should hopefully reflect the payment at the end if the night.

[TimR]

Is that a 200mile round trip?

I suppose I'm quite lucky living 25 miles from London but North London is about my limit for a pub gig and only because the pay is better and the pub we play is well known for music and good bands.

The other pubs we play are 20minute drive tops. That means I can leave home at 7pm and be home around 1am.

It takes about 40mins to set up and same to pack down. Even for £40 it works out £10 for each hour of 'work' and travel. We do a minimum of £160 as there are 4 of us but some pubs pay more.

[lojo]

Its a funny old one with the pub gigs, the last pub gig I did a month ago, we got £220, but id have done the gig for free as it was a laugh, and I only do pub gigs that are for a special reason (such as for an event, or with a deps with a band or friends I enjoy playing with, to try out a functions set etc)

If your in pubs for the money, then I think you'll always be disappointed and negative, because they cant pay what the efforts worth if its seen as work.

Also most bands aren't worth the money, doesn't matter if your level 42, if you don't bring a crowd or the pub cant draw in people your gigs, its not worth the money to the landlord, and thats understandable.

Im very grateful that most gigs pay enough to cover expenses or a meal out or trip to the cinema for the kids the next day (if I lose a family saturday night), but I am certainly not doing this for the money, its a fun hobby, just like playing football.

That doesn't mean that we play functions for free , its just that its not fundamentally a business.

[Damonjames]

50 miles each way tim. But at 2am on an empty
Motorway doing 50mph because of road works, it felt like 100 miles back!!!

[JTUK]

£10 ph door to door is reasonable ...or just about acceptable from our POV for pub work.
For that the pubs needs to have enough room for bands, have a good rosta and be set
up with a regular music night goer. If we can add 20-30 to their same numbers then
the date will work mostly.
I understand why pubs and LL's aren't going to be too pleased with 10 people through the door
as that is just not a sustainable gig, so both LL and band have to take some repsonsibility
there and whilst the LL will not be keen to repeat that experiment, bands may well think
they have completed their part of the bargain and want rebooking...but these days, pub work
doesn't work like that and live music might not even be something the LL is mad keen on
but it might be a way to sell more alcohol. At the end of the day, that is the sole reason we are there.

[paul_5]

Pubs pay so little because they can get away with it. Unfortunately supply outstrips demand with regards to 'live' acts. Landlords aren't interested in whether you're a singer with backing tracks, or an 8 piece disco band with a brass section, they want to maximise their profit margins.
Why should they ante up and pay a professional band at several hundred notes when they can get one of the regulars to strap up with a MiniDisc player and a mic?
For the most part these are not live venues, simply pubs who have decided that it's a nice little earner.

[Phil Starr]

My gripe is that promoting live music in pubs is all so amateurish. In fact outside of the gastro pubs and Weatherspoons the licensed trade is so amateurish.

Before I rant, a confession, I'm in the camp that would rather play a poorly paid gig to a decent sized lively audience than a well paid one in an empty pub.

Pubs have largely failed to respond to changes in society. Pubs used to be warm, inviting, friendly places when people had no central heating and TV was three channels. Most of them are now filthy dirty, smelly and uncomfortable compared with our homes. You really wouldn't accept your own home smelling like a pub toilet. The decor is often unchanged since the 60's and there are plenty of pubs in any decent sized town that have ceilings still stained by nicotine.

Sure the smoking ban has changed the nature of many pubs, but before the smoking ban the majority of the population were already non-smokers. They knew they would lose a few smokers but where were the ads saying our pubs were cleaner fresher places, the promotions to introduce new punters to the idea that the pub was a place for them.

Guess what publicans, women like a drink too, and a relaxed chat with friends more than most. Pubs shouldn't be somewhere to go to get away from 'her indoors', not in this century. How much effort have you put in to attract women into your pub? Ever thought of cleaning and decorating the place. How many pubs offer wine in 'red or white' and with a taste a supermarket could never get away with. People are quite happy to pay £12 a bottle and up in a restaurant so there is plenty of profit, why not offer a decent product.

Then music, how many pubs only put your posters up inside the pub? That'll be all of them then. Not going to attract anyone who has never been in your place is it? Who are you trying to attract with music? A wide range of people? How about a range of music? Young people, how about something up to date or, god forbid, something original? 30-40's how about something that reminds them of their teenage years? When you booked the band did you listen to their recordings? Go to catch them live? What were you thinking? If you spent a few hundred pounds on a new dishwasher you'd spend longer thinking about it than the thousand pounds a month on bands.

What's the best place to show off your bands (Tip, not the corner you've piled all the tables and chairs in) How are the acoustics in there? Is it lit to show off the band at it's best. Once you've got a band and an extra 50 punters in what are you offering to keep people there and get them in a party mood/extract the cost of the band? Drinks promotion? Special Menu? Happy hour just before the band comes on?

Enough Phil.

It's so frustrating, I drag friends along all the time to watch bands, there are fantastic bands around and mostly they are blown away. Dancing all night if they get half a chance. Even my band! Do they go again, rarely because they never know where/when the next band is playing. We are all looking for a good night out, anywhere, and the most numerous providers of social entertainment are doing almost nothing to provide a reason for getting us to leave our lovely, cosy homes stocked with a better range of the drinks we like than our pub. Just try and find out when your local pubs have their quiz night and you'll see what I mean. Half of them don't even have a maintained website never mind Twitter/FB etc.

Peoples habits change all the time, the Romans complained it wasn't like the old days, there never was a golden era, just one social phenomenon replacing another, but if the pubs don't reach out and adapt then they will be the social phenomenon of the past. I honestly don't think live music will ever be. We might need to learn some new songs though

[JTUK]

Yep, pick you pubs and if the g/f/wife wont go, take the hint that other women might not like it either...
That is why you have to vet the pubs and if we wouldn't drink there and neither would our 'fans'
we don't play it.

[Marvin]

Why do I bother?

Gets me out the house....

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1416302791' post='2608748']

. . . . . Enough Phil.

[/quote]

Good rant, with plenty of nails hit fair and square on the head.

I've never been a big fan of 'pub culture' and you've pretty much summarised why, especially the environmental points. I suspect this is a big contributory factor to the rise in coffee shop popularity in recent years.

[skidder652003]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416311284' post='2608853']
Good rant, with plenty of nails hit fair and square on the head.

I've never been a big fan of 'pub culture' and you've pretty much summarised why, especially the environmental points. I suspect this is a big contributory factor to the rise in coffee shop popularity in recent years.
[/quote]

maybe I should start phoning round the coffee shops and tearooms for a gig!!!!

[flyfisher]

Funny you should say that. When I was regularly travelling to USA, I always tried to visit a large bookstore which seemed to me to be more like public library. They had a large 'coffee shop' area with sofas and tables and a few times each week they would host musical evenings. Not exactly full-on rock bands, more like singer/songwriters and acoustic duo/trios, but they had some very talented players. I've no idea of the commercial arrangements though.

A friend is now doing a similar sort of thing in Hertford, on a monthly basis at the moment, though it's a non-paying gig, so probably not of much interest here

[TimR]

I think part of the problem with getting people into pubs and getting pubs to put bands on is appropriate volume.

I've seen some ridiculously loud bands in what is essentially someone's front room.

A lot of Pizza Expresses do live music.

[BigRedX]

If you can't make a profit from a £150 gig (and your goal is to make money) then you are doing it wrong.

For us £150 will easily cover our travelling costs for any gig that is within a 6 hour round trip and have enough left over for following week's rehearsal plus money to put aside towards the next recording session. On top of that we'll be fed and watered by the venue/promoter and will normally take a minimum of £50 in merch sales.

It takes a bit of work and organisation, but it can be done.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1416323320' post='2609048']
If you can't make a profit from a £150 gig (and your goal is to make money) then you are doing it wrong.

For us £150 will easily cover our travelling costs for any gig that is within a 6 hour round trip and have enough left over for following week's rehearsal plus money to put aside towards the next recording session. On top of that we'll be fed and watered by the venue/promoter and will normally take a minimum of £50 in merch sales.

It takes a bit of work and organisation, but it can be done.
[/quote]

So how is this £200 split between how many of you..? The £50 sales are takings, or profit..? I'm not suggesting that the figures are wrong, simply that, as a trade, it sounds difficult to make a living from that. Pocket money, maybe, but not a wage, surely..?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1416323667' post='2609054']
So how is this £200 split between how many of you..? The £50 sales are takings, or profit..? I'm not suggesting that the figures are wrong, simply that, as a trade, it sounds difficult to make a living from that. Pocket money, maybe, but not a wage, surely..?
[/quote]

It's all band money. At this stage we don't expect to make a living. However being in the band doesn't actually cost any money other than consumables for our individual gear - strings, drum heads etc. Our band transport, rehearsal space, recording costs, merchandise production etc. all comes out of the band fund which is paid for by playing live and sales of music and T-shirts at gigs or through our website/iTunes etc. It's been quite some time now since individual band members have actual had to pay for any band-specific expenses out of their own pockets.