Why do we bother??!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1416324126' post='2609061']
It's all band money...
[/quote]

'Tis as I thought. The band I was with a few years ago, as a 'lighter', did exactly the same. The band expenses, including recording, were all covered by gigging and 'merch', but no-one, except the 'pro' sound engi, got any salary from it all. Our eldest, guitarist with them at their start, still gets a tiny amount each quarter as royalties from their CDs. A great time over several years, but one needed a 'real' job alongside.

[BigRedX]

But I bet the OP's band has very little of their £30 each left by the time they have deducted individual travelling expenses, drinks and dirty burger/kebab on the way home.

I quit my covers band last year partly because the amount of time, effort and money I needed to put in versus the amount of money coming back was simply not worth it. I was seeing more band profit out of the originals band despite the fact that the covers band were getting at least double the money as gig fees.

And that's before I took songwriting royalties into account. PRS money for the band this year is probably going to be in the region of £400-500 and that's without any major radio play. Plus I'm still earning from bands I was in back in the 80s.

Sometime I need to do a proper post bursting the myth that covers bands make more money than originals, because AFAICS although they should, in practice they don't by any means do it consistently.

[JTUK]

Our last CD cost £1200... it will be a long time before we see anything off that, I'm sure.
And that is not costing ourselves as the session players

[Guest Jecklin]

Finding this thread very interesting.

If I was in a covers band (I'm not) I'd want monetary guarantees, where as with my own material I'm happy with a higher sense of risk.
As long as I can balance the books so to speak, ie doing free gigs to enhance promotion, sort of payment in kind as it were, then I'm happy with that.

[peteb]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416303154' post='2608755']
Yep, pick you pubs and if the g/f/wife wont go, take the hint that other women might not like it either...
That is why you have to vet the pubs and if we wouldn't drink there and neither would our 'fans'
we don't play it.
[/quote]
Good job that the boys playing in Chicago in the 40s & 50s didn't take that approach or we wouldn't have any decent music to play in pubs many decades later...!

Actually, I've had some cracking nights playing in places that you wouldn't normally go into without an armed escort...!

[blue]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416253317' post='2608381']
Can't see the logic there. Youngish bands playing newish songs to youngish audiences, fine. Middle aged blokes playing 70s blues rock to older audiences, fine. Both playing to their own segments. What are the middle aged rock star wannabes supposed to do to 'up their game'.
[/quote]

Exactly what I'm faced with. I'm in a band, blues/rock with good people, a 4 piece. Good pay and we play the biker bar circuit, we gig 2 times a week. However, I would like a taste of the higher pay, better stages and gigs. The only option is agency represented cover bands. Thing is guys like me will probably[i] "age out"[/i] on the audition. I'm 61.


Why do We Bother?

I'm 61 and have been doing this since I was 12 years old. What else am I going to do. I don't know anything else.

Blue

Edited November 18, 2014 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1416335780' post='2609181']
Good job that the boys playing in Chicago in the 40s & 50s didn't take that approach or we wouldn't have any decent music to play in pubs many decades later...!

Actually, I've had some cracking nights playing in places that you wouldn't normally go into without an armed escort...!
[/quote]

I agree with Pete. I gig a lot of these low end bars/clubs. 2 Comments;
[list]
[*]These places look a lot scarier than they actually are.
[*]Funny, how they can come up with the $$s to meet our fee and the nicer clubs in the city can't. Or should I say won't?
[/list]

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1416324126' post='2609061']
It's all band money. At this stage we don't expect to make a living. However being in the band doesn't actually cost any money other than consumables for our individual gear - strings, drum heads etc. Our band transport, rehearsal space, recording costs, merchandise production etc. all comes out of the band fund which is paid for by playing live and sales of music and T-shirts at gigs or through our website/iTunes etc. It's been quite some time now since individual band members have actual had to pay for any band-specific expenses out of their own pockets.
[/quote]

No band funds for me, been there done that. Now it's cash on the barrel head, right into my wallet at closing time.

Blue

[LemonCello]

My band is on the pub/club circuit and £200 is about the going rate as most places get that from the Brewery for ents. Anything more than that comes out of the pubs own coffers and we all know that the pub is a dying breed. Must admit that the thought of going out this time of year from a warm front room to some random boozer with just enough room for a duo let alone a 4 piece with a sizeable PA is not an appealing one....BUT...once the gear is humped and set up and IF the crowd are appreciative, get up and dance and give you positive comments afterwards, the £50 each we get doesn't seem at all bad seeing as we've all had a hoot. I figure I've put the time in practising, bought the gear, auditioned and got into a band and a gig is kinda the end result, the payoff (don't mean financially). What isn't so palatable is the gig feeding frenzy on Facebook. Some peeps appear to be prepared to sell their granny for a gig! Anyway, I'm happy enuff atm

[TimR]

One point that's probably slightly overlooked is this money is all cash. Erm. Obviously we're all declaring any profits we happen to have made by the end of the year.

However, for me to pay for a set of £25 strings (legitimate expenses) I would have to earn getting on for £45 in my day job...

Legitimately that money you get paid is worth 30-60% more in real terms depending on your tax position.

[JTUK]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1416335780' post='2609181']
Good job that the boys playing in Chicago in the 40s & 50s didn't take that approach or we wouldn't have any decent music to play in pubs many decades later...!

Actually, I've had some cracking nights playing in places that you wouldn't normally go into without an armed escort...!
[/quote]

I can leave it, myself. I am not saying it isn't possible to have a good gig in a rough type bar, but
it is not impossible for a fight either. I don't go to those type of places so not interested in playing there.
We give whole towns a miss for that reason as well....as in, no places that we fancy playing.

[peteb]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1416341139' post='2609255']


I agree with Pete. I gig a lot of these low end bars/clubs. 2 Comments;
[list]
[*]These places look a lot scarier than they actually are.
[*]Funny, how they can come up with the $$s to meet our fee and the nicer clubs in the city can't. Or should I say won't?
[/list]

Blue
[/quote]
Yep – I've played a lot of biker places and usually they really friendly places if you go in with the right attitude, although one or two can get a bit tasty if you don't. Funnily enough, the least friendly gig I can remember if the past few years was playing a private party at a golf club!

Going back to the OP and the reason why we bother playing pubs, last Saturday I played a pub in a tough mining town 30 miles away. I had never been there before and my first impression was that it was a bit of a dive / biker joint, certainly not the sort of place that JT would want to take a lady friend! However everybody was really friendly, the place got packed and they nearly took the roof off. Great night (despite my pre-amp tubes going for the last three songs) and we got an extra £80 in tips from the ubiquitous bucket, not to mention bookings for a couple of bike rallies.

A night like that is the reason that we carry on playing the pub circuit...

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416344800' post='2609309']
I can leave it, myself. I am not saying it isn't possible to have a good gig in a rough type bar, but
it is not impossible for a fight either. I don't go to those type of places so not interested in playing there.
We give whole towns a miss for that reason as well....as in, no places that we fancy playing.
[/quote]

For me, I knew my band played these lower end places when I joined 3 years ago. I also knew they stuck to their $100.00 a man minimum. I understand why some won't play these places.

For me it was a simple matter of; [i]'[/i]

[i]" It's part of the job "[/i]

Blue

blue

[blue]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1416350137' post='2609378']
Yep – I've played a lot of biker places and usually they really friendly places if you go in with the right attitude, although one or two can get a bit tasty if you don't. Funnily enough, the least friendly gig I can remember if the past few years was playing a private party at a golf club!

Going back to the OP and the reason why we bother playing pubs, last Saturday I played a pub in a tough mining town 30 miles away. I had never been there before and my first impression was that it was a bit of a dive / biker joint, certainly not the sort of place that JT would want to take a lady friend! However everybody was really friendly, the place got packed and they nearly took the roof off. Great night (despite my pre-amp tubes going for the last three songs) and we got an extra £80 in tips from the ubiquitous bucket, not to mention bookings for a couple of bike rallies.

A night like that is the reason that we carry on playing the pub circuit...
[/quote]

Yeah, Pete that story really hits home. When I first joined the band, I was terrified of some of them. But I learned you can't judge a book by it's cover. And yes,, we have picked up gigs for rally's poker runs and small summer festivals.

Blue

Edited November 18, 2014 by blue

[JTUK]

Since we tend to stay within 30 mins driver distance, I'll likely know of the place or will know plenty of people who have played there or know it.
Basically I'll want to know it is big enough and that we don't squeeze in.. the playing area isn't too shut away so the viewing area is good and
the clientele is ok. That is before we talk about money. Funnily enough, the best pub for all that is one we've resisted for a while but
they have built up a reputation as a music pub ( They don't do food )- they have a house P.A which is ok and they have a stage in a hall like room.
They also put on quite a bill when the town has a BIG hop festival, so we asked some of our regulars from that that town as we were looking for a second gig
if it was worth doing and they said it was, ie, they go there. We only do two pubs per town and so they tend to be the better ones, but one of them refurbed to a bistro so live music was out. We had a space for a venue so it worked out.
Apart from pub specials which tend to be summer marquee type gigs, we only have regular 4 pubs on our books, iirc.

[TimR]

Landlords to be allowed to buy their drinks on the open market.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30110742

[JTUK]

Hmm sounds good on paper but I think it will make things worse, potentially.

Unless the 'tenant' can break the tie of the pub with the owner, what the owner loses
on the barrel, he will go for on rent.. and pub rents are what is killing the trade anyway, .

[flyfisher]

Yes, it could be bad for those reasons, but another scenario is that the pubco's pull out and more pubs go independent.

As previously mentioned, some pubs really need to up their game. Who wants to go to a grotty place to drink when it's cheaper to stay at home in comfort and buy drinks from the supermarket. Restaurants manage to lure people out of their comfortable homes - and it's always cheaper to cook at home - so they must be offering something attractive to people.

[TimR]

The pubcos own the pubs. So unless the landlord can afford to buy the pub (very unlikely), the pub will be sold off for flats or housing.

Edited November 19, 2014 by TimR

[JTUK]

I was going to suggest that independents could be the way to go... ??
Maybe this could be a shake up in that the owners need to look after
good tenants as opposed to put up rents the better a publican builds their business.

Music pubs round here put the beer up for music nights..which I haven't got a problem with,
but the cost of a pint IS noticeable these days. I think music nights pints average about £3.60
a pint of bitter.

But...so many pubs do music, it can't be that bad a thing or expense..

Food pubs..in a traditional sense, and not so much a 'dinger'...( which is a micro-waved menu pub )
do pretty well around here but maybe the 'local' is dead on its knees..?

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416395532' post='2609674']
The pubcos own the pubs. So unless the landlord can afford to buy the pub (very unlikely), the pub will be sold off for flats or housing.
[/quote]

It needs to be timed right as lots of pubs are up for sale... and they can be cheaper like for like than housing, but
they aren't sold for housing under the 'change of use' rule..??

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416395532' post='2609674']
The pubcos own the pubs. So unless the landlord can afford to buy the pub (very unlikely), the pub will be sold off for flats or housing.
[/quote]

If the pub can't support a mortgage then it's not really a viable business is it?

Anyway, people are always moaning about high house prices and the need for more housing, so selling off unviable pubs for housing sounds like a win-win situation.

Use it or lose it. It all reminds me of the sentiments surrounding the decline of the high street.

[TimR]

Not many businesses own their properties. Most rent. Businesses don't last 25 years+. Pubs may have several different landlords over the years.

The change of use is relatively easy to get. All you have to do is show that the pub has been on the market for a couple of years with no takers.

Immediate neighbours will usually be for a change of use so the planning doesn't get much resistance.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1416324126' post='2609061']
It's all band money. At this stage we don't expect to make a living.
[/quote]

This sounds more like a long term plan to 'make it' (and good luck to you), which is a very different scenario to bands playing for fun (paid or unpaid) and with no ambition to forge a career in music.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416343868' post='2609296']
One point that's probably slightly overlooked is this money is all cash. Erm. Obviously we're all declaring any profits we happen to have made by the end of the year.
[/quote]

I'm sure the pros are. For us pub players we barely break even when all costs are taken into account.